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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2011 18:07:40 GMT -5
If your seeing bucks, then you have to have does too. Somewhere, one of them gave birth to those bucks. Sounds as if your area would have a good sex ratio of 1:2 or so. And probably a good intense rut.
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 15, 2011 18:27:55 GMT -5
If your seeing bucks, then you have to have does too. Somewhere, one of them gave birth to those bucks. Sounds as if your area would have a good sex ratio of 1:2 or so. And probably a good intense rut. That is incorrect since 90% of all 16 month old bucks disperse the fact that the doe that birthed them is killed or not. It simply don't matter one lick in that regard if you shoot her or not in regards to keeping young bucks born on your land . So in fact you may not of had a single button buck or doe on your hunting land in years and you will still receive bucks every year from maybe as far as 25 miles away that now call your land home. That is the true biological facts .Also most bucks travel between 3 and 20 miles before calling a new piece of land home. sorry There are way way too many myths about button bucks staying on their home birth ranges put forth by supposed QDM followers out there now days once again another contrived reason to shoot more does that does not really amount to a hill of beans . Is the outside chance that 1 of 10 button bucks will live their whole life on the same ground they were born on a good reason to kill every doe you see ?? I think not its not even good stewardship of the animals or land we hunt.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2011 19:10:33 GMT -5
Yeah, dispersal is real, you loose some and gain some every year. What's also true is IF you have BB's to disperse, that you also have does to give them birth. Can you explain any other way they may have gotten here? It would be rare for a buck to disperse 20-25 miles, btw. Another reason you want a balanced herd and good habitat. Provide good fawn cover and you'll have good recruitment. Bucks are born at a rate of 1.2 to 1.....for every BB you see, you have a doe there too.
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 15, 2011 19:37:39 GMT -5
Yeah, dispersal is real, you loose some and gain some every year. What's also true is IF you have BB's to disperse, that you also have does to give them birth. Can you explain any other way they may have gotten here? It would be rare for a buck to disperse 20-25 miles, btw. Another reason you want a balanced herd and good habitat. Provide good fawn cover and you'll have good recruitment. Bucks are born at a rate of 1.2 to 1.....for every BB you see, you have a doe there too. I understand the doe gave birth to a button buck thing m=but I was working with a fictional if you had no does or fawns scenario here . That you should and could expect to have a or some bucks move ion every year . And yea 25 miles is the high side but most bucks average somewhere between 7 to 12 miles to their new home range on their 16 month move. Its funny how guys see small bucks grow their first rack and talk about this 4 point or that small 6 or 8 only to loose them and assume that they were killed or poached . Only to later talk about other small bucks they see somewhere around Sept to Oct time frame .To proclaim that they have this spike or odd ball rack configuration growing up on their land .When in fact all the hunter land owner did was swap his 16 month old bucks for someone else's16 month olds. And in alot of instances especially if your land is of high quality and the deer are to you come out on the wrong end of those trades alot of the time .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2011 19:52:04 GMT -5
Not true, bucks disperse only far enough to find other does, could be 1/2 mile or just the farm next door. When you have a balanced herd, you'll never notice any dispersalm because the loose is the same as the gain in most cases.
Dispersal is not always at 16-18 mos. either, sometimes it's in the spring, when young bucks are pushed out by their mother.....which is most always a doe. So, see, there has to be some does there.
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Post by bowhunterjohn on Dec 15, 2011 20:00:40 GMT -5
I thought the mother ran off the buttons, and if she was gone/harvested before she ran them off they woudl stay in your area
At least thats what I have read and did this year, harvested 3 mature doe and left 3 buttons on the farm I've seen all year long, saw 2 of them last time down
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 15, 2011 20:45:51 GMT -5
Not true, bucks disperse only far enough to find other does, could be 1/2 mile or just the farm next door. When you have a balanced herd, you'll never notice any dispersal because the loose is the same as the gain in most cases. Dispersal is not always at 16-18 mos. either, sometimes it's in the spring, when young bucks are pushed out by their mother.....which is most always a doe. So, see, there has to be some does there. actually you are wrong again on this one the doe don't push them out it instinctual for them its bred into them a doe only pushes Buttons away at the time she is going to become receptive to breeding and when she weens her fawns thats it.Does pushing away Button bucks /yearling bucks the next spring or winter is a old wives tail that has kept life by words only. Second 16 month olds dispersal has nothing to do with that buck finding does its not the rut !! Its all about them moving where they fit in or are allowed to stay in relative peace where there is good cover and food second deers home range is over a mile so your half mile theory is bunk!Its all about what ever they are looking for once their feet move them and they go till they are comfortable where they are and its never close to home studies have proven this multiple times over and over . The only ones who move that close to home and after all a half mile is home to the same deer herd are the 10 % of the bucks not wired to move for whatever reason. Once again its not like the rut and has absolutely nothing to do with does where a buck sets up his new home. Food cover and being far from home is all its about and its in their genes. Really you need to read real deer studies not the folklore some publish or tell on the net or around a camp fire guys .This is where many get lost in the false details
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 15, 2011 20:49:00 GMT -5
I thought the mother ran off the buttons, and if she was gone/harvested before she ran them off they woudl stay in your area At least that's what I have read and did this year, harvested 3 mature doe and left 3 buttons on the farm I've seen all year long, saw 2 of them last time down They will stay till next fall and then kiss them good bye but on the up side you will get some bucks you have never seen in return .So basicly if you have 10 buttons on your ground you may have by percentage 1 stay there despite killing the mother or not!Ask yourself why those guys who claim QDMA club status who know the truth get all kinds of nuts over someone in their remote area killing a button buck!! Its obvious he wants it to move to his hunting land but where it ends up is a roll of natures dice!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2011 21:15:32 GMT -5
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Post by posiedon on Dec 15, 2011 22:54:18 GMT -5
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Post by Carphunter on Dec 16, 2011 14:37:22 GMT -5
For you guys that seem to worship Chad Stewart, I've had enough conversations with him over the past few months to believe he couldn't find his rear with both hands. Another DNR puppet that learned to manage a deer herd out of a book. Seems to be a lot of deer biologists that fit that description on this site.
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Post by Carphunter on Dec 16, 2011 14:40:19 GMT -5
"Between 600,000-750,000." That's what our deer biologist estimate's our deer herd?? LOL How many year's you gotta go to school to get such a precise estimate. IMO to me that mean's they "DNR" has no idea how many deer Indiana has. My guess is closer to 500,000. And I gotta believe my "SWAG" (Scientific wild ass guess) is as close as DNR's. Dang boonechaser, you cracked me up with this one. SWAG, that's some funny stuff right there. ;D
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 16, 2011 17:53:19 GMT -5
Here is the first QDMA google thread and one of the leaders of QDMA who are very good at exaggerating their claims admits that you can not stockpile bucks on your ground and said that 2 out of 3 button bucks will disperse even if the mothers are shot so that ain't real good odds given even by the QDMA guru himself LOL and I will find more with the numbers I posted earlier if you like and we can post and re post till our guts fall out and never agree so this is truly stupid to argue about . www.whitetailinstitute.com/info/news/nov05/5.html
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 16, 2011 18:07:53 GMT -5
Here is another one by QDMA biologists and bad news QDM guys your bucks that stay because you intervene in natural dispersal will likely have considerably smaller antlers than the bucks that disperse!! Check it out their own words not mine LOL this is funny as heck !! And what is that about the third paragraph down Does aggression had not post or pre QDM effect on dispersal LOL www.qdma.com/what-we-do/articles/certification-program-readings/young-bucks-leaving/
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Post by posiedon on Dec 16, 2011 23:39:08 GMT -5
I posted my link because if you read timex's about the Maryland study it says one thing then my link to the QDMA article references the same study and has different results. Bottom line don't believe anything you read if it comes from a hunter or is created for the hunters. There are real scientists out there where you can pick through the numbers yourself. I haven't tried but I am sure the Maryland study could be found published undoctored some where even. From my semesters in Wildlife Biology I was taught the button bucks disperse out of their home range. Not all of them do but most. This is natural to prevent incest and in areas prone to piebalds the dispersal range isn't as large. As incest brings that on most of the time. But this was all from text book written years ago also. More and more studies are done on the deer now including more accurate tracking so would be interesting to dig up them studies somewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2011 8:06:14 GMT -5
No need to look it up, just ask these two jokers. Both of them know more than the paid professionals that have ALL the data stheir hands and years of experience cyphering out the data.
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Post by greghopper on Dec 17, 2011 9:27:16 GMT -5
No need to look it up, just ask these two hikers. Both of them know more than the paid professionals that have ALL the data stheir hands and years of experience cyphering out the data. Sorta what I have been thinking.....
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 17, 2011 10:22:17 GMT -5
No need to look it up, just ask these two hikers. Both of them know more than the paid professionals that have ALL the data stheir hands and years of experience cyphering out the data. Really I just posted some real profesionals study and you dont like it and so tell every one dont read it and by studied by the very cause / group you swear by now thats funny as hell!!! Yep I do have years of experiance sifting through what works and whats nothing more than a pile of bunk!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2011 11:58:44 GMT -5
When you claim to know more than trianed, paid professional biologists, you loose any credibility you might have. Years of experience in the field, doesn't equate to the vast knowledge of deer management that professional biologist have. Any person who is qualified enough to be the head deer biologist of a state, any state for that matter, could eat your lunch in a one to one discussion on deer management. Try it sometime.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2011 11:59:38 GMT -5
Not to mention they will also know the difference in QDM and the QDMA, which you apparently don't.
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