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Post by jjas on Apr 8, 2011 10:27:32 GMT -5
If it's only about introducing more effective weapons, why can't i use my 12 gauge during archery season as well.? I mean come on, think about how many more deer would/could be killed. jjas, take a look at Ohio's firearms season. That, coupled with OBR, gives Ohio a high quality deer herd, even with full crossbow inclusion. If you guys would take Ohio's firearms season, I would welcome crossbows. In other words, I can put up with A, if it means better management of B. Finney So if Indiana had short gun seasons you would suddenly figure that the pressure from xbow season would be acceptable? Even though you posted above about the negative consequences from xbows in the October and November woods? Really...... I agree with Woody on this. We all want to kill a nice buck during hunting season. The difference for me is that I'm not willing to force gun and xbow hunters to the back of the bus to try and get it.
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Post by racktracker on Apr 8, 2011 10:39:01 GMT -5
Matt,
Let me save you some time and effort.
The number of states that have had a negative impact from the inclusion or expansion of crossbows into the archery season is - ZERO.
They have all been positives results. Why do you see that more and more states are allowing crossbows into all of the archery season? These state biologist talk at considerable length with each other. They know what is good and what is bad.
Cut your losses and just go read the three or four posts daily at HH.
You've been schooled.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 8, 2011 10:54:27 GMT -5
If it's only about introducing more effective weapons, why can't i use my 12 gauge during archery season as well.? I mean come on, think about how many more deer would/could be killed. jjas, take a look at Ohio's firearms season. That, coupled with OBR, gives Ohio a high quality deer herd, even with full crossbow inclusion. If you guys would take Ohio's firearms season, I would welcome crossbows. In other words, I can put up with A, if it means better management of B. Matt, Where did the DNR say that they wanted crossbow inclusion because they were a "more effective weapon"?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 12:33:13 GMT -5
Matt doesn't know what he wants. Says he wants a better age structure and bigger bucks.....which is exactly what will happen with Plan II when it's enacted.
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Post by mattfinney on Apr 8, 2011 15:59:01 GMT -5
Alright, most of us here are pretty set in our ways, so these debates realistically only do good to help us understand each other’s positions, as very few will change their mind/position as a result of these talks.
You have good questions Woody, and they're worth exploring. Clearly, there is no hard-set right or wrong answer to this.....if crossbows are included, we'll all keep hunting, if not, again, we'll keep hunting.
While there exists no logical reason for prohibiting crossbows, there is also no logical reason to keep firearms from the October and early November woods. It all comes down to personal preference, and how each of us defines what we want in our own deer hunting. Me personally, I like what states like Illinois, Iowa, and Ohio have done with their whitetail management. These states are managing whitetails in a manner to provide a higher quality deer herd, and not paying so much regard to increasing hunter opportunity. Sure, Ohio has crossbows, but they have a very short and late firearms season compared to ours. Iowa has firmly realized the benefit of reduced pressure on bucks during the rut, and allows zero hunting for bucks with guns during the month of the November. As a result, Iowa produces some of the best whitetail hunting around (or so I’m told).
Let’s suppose we introduce crossbows into archery season, and then years down the road, we decide that we need further reduction. One possible solution might be to have firearms be allowed during archery season. Would you so adamantly support the inclusion of firearms as well?….If so, then I have no hope of saving you, but, if not, why not? Of course, this is an extreme scenario, but it does well to illustrate the flaw in the logic that presumes that everyone should have free choice of weaponry.
jjas, and trapper, I could address your posts, but I would have a better chance of teaching my dog calculus, than getting either of you two to acknowledge the truth.
When the desire to win arguments becomes greater than the desire to know the truth, debate becomes fruitless.
In closing, I’m not saying it would be wrong to allow crossbows, I’m just saying it doesn’t fit my style, and I will never feel bad for making hunters chase deer with bows and arrows for the first month and a half of deer season.
Thanks to all those who act like adults, timex and others. There's no reason that we can't disagree, and also not hate each other.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 16:09:09 GMT -5
So, you don't like inclusion of crossbows, good. Simple fix....don't buy one and don't bum one off one of your pals that doesn't have the same problems that you do.
Curious why you didn't mention Kentucky in your examples, being they are #2 in B & C buck production by category. Guess why....because they have firearms hunting during the peak of the rut, and in Oct. with no adverse effects to buck production or quality of the hunt during the first week of Nov. Illinois also has an ealy youth gun season and they also hunt the rut with guns, even though most of the people that don't hunt there have little knowledge of it.
The bottom line is that the game agency needs to continue killing an X number of deer each year to reach their goals, and it doesn't matter what weapon does it, it's all the same when the data is compiled for the post season report.
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Post by trapperdave on Apr 8, 2011 17:46:18 GMT -5
what "truth" would that be, Mathew?
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 8, 2011 17:55:02 GMT -5
what "truth" would that be, Mathew? Good question. I wonder where the "truth' in his answers to my questions are at? About the only thing he says that was "truth" was he wants (no, make that CHERISH) to kill "mature bucks", even if it means keeping others out of the woods. Timex, These guys want to cherry pick what they like . If they reference Kentucky's OBR and they want that. We then say, but they time their RIFLE season to coincide with the rut. Oh, no...they don't want rifles and they don't want gun hunters in the rut. They will reference Illinois for their short gun seasons. I say OK, they have a two buck rule - even two with a firearm. Oh no, they don't want that. They will reference Ohio. They have crossbows. Oh no.. they dont want that. How about Iowa? They party hunt.. Oh no, they don't want that. ......and on and on and on. They are basiclaly selfish cherry pickers. Only looking out for themselves and whiz on all the rest of the hunters..
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Post by jjas on Apr 8, 2011 18:17:09 GMT -5
Good point Woody about Iowa and their party hunting.
Oh...BTW Matt, since you brought up Iowa and how much you like the way they do things.
Let's look @ 2010 hunting season data....
Iowa hunters killed 62K bucks (antlered, button and bucks that had shed) and 65K does.
Indiana hunters killed 65K bucks (antlered and button) and 68K does.
Virtually identical numbers..........
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Post by throbak on Apr 8, 2011 19:35:41 GMT -5
Matt I think if I were your age and so dissatisfied with things at home (Indiana) I would move to a state that was more to my Liking Because when you are OLD MEN like a lot of us its hard to do so maybe while you are Young you should move instead of living somewhere you despise
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Post by Indyhunter on Apr 8, 2011 20:10:41 GMT -5
Fair warning for those of you that do not read posts on HH on occasion, and those of you that have not read some of Matthews posts here including the one last week where he and I were going in circles (about the ATLATL). Matthew whether intentionally or not LOVES to go in circles and will avoid answering direct questions at all costs. He will spin them around and answer a question with a question when a fact might get in the way or when he contradicts himself (which happens often in case you haven't realized). And if all else fails, he will "baconize" the replies. I'm not saying he is a bad person by any means, but trying to have an actual debate, a Q and A discussion, will not happen. He presents facts, everyone else is "just different", or an "old man", has an opinion that isn't valid, or asks too many questions. (By the way, Matthew thinks there should be a separate archery season for turkey prior to the regular season because it presents additional opportunity. Hmm. Different topic, and different post. Go read the turkey forum on HH and you'll see the same dodging and 'facts'. Not sure if someone wants to start that debate up on here, but if so, are the bad 80 yard dead on crossbows are part of that equation??)
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Post by mattfinney on Apr 8, 2011 20:24:07 GMT -5
Woody, I'm pretty sure that most people see right through your tactics. You try to make me into some evil, selfish person, for wanting to impose limits on hunters. You never have the ability to just stick to the issues. You know your case is extremely weak, so you try to change the subject and make this all about me.
Why can't you just acknowledge that we view things differently, and have different desires when it comes to the design of our deer hunting regulations. It's extremely childish and it proves that you have no real ammunition for your case. You simply stand there and point your finger at me, and tell everybody how I'm such a terrible person, when all that I'm really guilty of, is ability to see the benefit in placing reasonable limitations on hunters.
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Post by Indyhunter on Apr 8, 2011 20:29:37 GMT -5
jjas, and trapper, I could address your posts, but I would have a better chance of teaching my dog calculus, than getting either of you two to acknowledge the truth. At least you aren't "old men". (Psst, don't present too many facts or questions and you won't get insulted!) When the desire to win arguments becomes greater than the desire to know the truth, debate becomes fruitless. (Psst, only Matthews "truth".) In closing, I’m not saying it would be wrong to allow crossbows, I’m just saying it doesn’t fit my style, and I will never feel bad for making hunters chase deer with bows and arrows for the first month and a half of deer season. Doesn't fit your style...... What is the definition of "bows and arrows"? Is it stick and string? Does it include wheels? Cams? Carbon arrows? Has the definition changed over the last 40 years, or is it the same? Does the definition state vertical? Darn it. Sorry, there I go asking questions. Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm on call for work and stuck at home!
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Post by Indyhunter on Apr 8, 2011 20:33:22 GMT -5
Woody, I'm pretty sure that most people see right through your tactics. You try to make me into some evil, selfish person, for wanting to impose limits on hunters. You never have the ability to just stick to the issues. You know your case is extremely weak, so you try to change the subject and make this all about me. Why can't you just acknowledge that we view things differently, and have different desires when it comes to the design of our deer hunting regulations. It's extremely childish and it proves that you have no real ammunition for your case. You simply stand there and point your finger at me, and tell everybody how I'm such a terrible person, when all that I'm really guilty of, is ability to see the benefit in placing reasonable limitations on hunters. Geez Matthew, thanks! You went and made my point for me as I was typing it out!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 20:33:52 GMT -5
The problem is that the majority of hunters don't agree with the limitations that you want imposed, nor does the DNR. Your demise is not linked to Woody, more so its self inflected.
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Post by buddylee on Apr 8, 2011 20:40:54 GMT -5
Matt, are you for real?
Woody has asked you some very good questions that you dance all around and never answer them. Then you have the audacity to say that "people see right through Woody's tactics" and he "never has the ability to just stick to the issues." PULLLEEEAAAASSSE!
He has been as straight forward as possible. You, OTOH, bounce all over the place with incoherent statements. He put up plenty of "ammunition for his case". You have been shooting duds and fizzles.
You've got it backwards, people have seen through what you are all about and it ain't pretty..
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Post by mattfinney on Apr 8, 2011 20:47:49 GMT -5
timex, your demise is also self inflected....or inflicted?
posted by Indyhunter: "What is the definition of "bows and arrows"? Is it stick and string? Does it include wheels? Cams? Carbon arrows? Has the definition changed over the last 40 years, or is it the same? Does the definition state vertical?
Darn it. Sorry, there I go asking questions. Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm on call for work and stuck at home!"
I believe that a portion of deer season should be reserved for hand-held, hand-drawn, bows, and that's proof that I'm the devil.
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Post by racktracker on Apr 8, 2011 20:50:56 GMT -5
Woody, I'm pretty sure that most people see right through your tactics. You try to make me into some evil, selfish person, for wanting to impose limits on hunters. You never have the ability to just stick to the issues. You know your case is extremely weak, so you try to change the subject and make this all about me. Why can't you just acknowledge that we view things differently, and have different desires when it comes to the design of our deer hunting regulations. It's extremely childish and it proves that you have no real ammunition for your case. You simply stand there and point your finger at me, and tell everybody how I'm such a terrible person, when all that I'm really guilty of, is ability to see the benefit in placing reasonable limitations on hunters. If there ever was a post to ROTFLMAO this is it. Surely you jest?
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Post by racktracker on Apr 8, 2011 20:56:41 GMT -5
I believe that a portion of deer season should be reserved for hand-held, hand-drawn, bows, and that's proof that I'm the devil. Matt, I'm sure that you weren't around then but how many times since the first day of Hoosiers going afield with bow and arrows has that definition changed?
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Post by mattfinney on Apr 8, 2011 20:56:45 GMT -5
here come the lapdogs...
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