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Post by tickman1961 on Jul 15, 2010 14:08:45 GMT -5
Ya think that is the only thing that they are influencing? Wasnt necessarily talking about the stakeholders you mentioned .... just the observation that lots and lots of guys around the state dont want x-bows during archery season. Me being one of them ..... and I definitely aint no part of any good ol boys network. Soooo, we want our own little time by ourselves irregardless the crossbow is much less effective or efficiant than a compound with 60% to 80% let off that can shoot 50 yards with minimal drop. - You don't think your above statement reaks of elitism?
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Post by swilk on Jul 15, 2010 14:14:54 GMT -5
nope.
I happily share all my time in the woods with whomever is hunting with other legal weapons .... and that includes my father using his xbow whenever I can get him to actually go with me.
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Post by indianahick on Jul 15, 2010 15:58:55 GMT -5
What most of us can agree upon is that the cross bow rule is highly discriminatory and was more than likely proposed by a group or groups that discriminatory in nature and in actions. What is needed? A lawsuit? Hope not; nothing screws things up more than a bunch of lawyers. I would suggest a writing (email) campaign informing the DNR that those groups actually comprise less than 30% of Indiana's deer hunters.
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Post by swilk on Jul 15, 2010 16:56:02 GMT -5
I disagree with that. The percentage of folks that I talk to that would support xbows being used during archery season is very, very small. Less than one out of ten. Others will see the exact opposite ..... point is there is no clear majority that is easy to find.
Not sure how you get it is discriminatory? Do we allow some folks who are disabled and not others? But .... if a lawsuit were successful some folks would be interested in suing for their parking spots as well. And those senior discounts at McDonalds.
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Post by mbogo on Jul 15, 2010 17:32:40 GMT -5
I think there's a very few deer hunters that have more than a little ego problem. Not just with the antler obsession, but with control issues as well. If you look at recent history and think about what's been happenning, it becomes pretty apparent it is as much about social engineering as it is about deer hunting. It started out as a desire by a few to limit other hunters because they weren't killing the kind of bucks they wanted. When the first efforts weren't sufficient to allow them to kill the big bucks they wanted another step was needed. And another. And another. It's not long before it becomes more about the control than producing big bucks.
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Post by fullrut on Jul 15, 2010 17:45:32 GMT -5
I for one think that the good ole boys organazation SUCKS. How bout someone start an INDIANA GUNHUNTERS ASSOCIATION. Seems us gun hunters don't have a say.
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Post by duff on Jul 15, 2010 17:49:15 GMT -5
Proficency of the weapon is most certainly a product of the user, not the tool. I've killed well over 50% of my deer with a compound over shotgun, rifle, or muzzleloader.
Can you shoot farther with a cross bow? Can you kill more with a cross bow? Can you do anything easier with a crossbow then with a compound? It boils down to tradition and self imposed opinions.
Will legal for all cross bows kill a few more does? I doubt it very seriously, I mean look at the PCR and the percentage they are given credit for... And they are cheaper and less painful then shotguns.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 15, 2010 18:07:44 GMT -5
I disagree with that. The percentage of folks that I talk to that would support xbows being used during archery season is very, very small. Less than one out of ten. Others will see the exact opposite ..... point is there is no clear majority that is easy to find. Not sure how you get it is discriminatory? Do we allow some folks who are disabled and not others? But .... if a lawsuit were successful some folks would be interested in suing for their parking spots as well. And those senior discounts at McDonalds. First of McDonalds doesn't give senior dicounts. Secondly surveys (random and online) conducted by the IDNR says more hunters want crossbows in all archery season than don't. Fact..
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 15, 2010 18:12:45 GMT -5
Proficency of the weapon is most certainly a product of the user, not the tool. I've killed well over 50% of my deer with a compound over shotgun, rifle, or muzzleloader.
Yes sir..I agree 110%
Can you shoot farther with a cross bow?
No..
Can you kill more with a cross bow?
No. Probably less as you will never "double up"
Can you do anything easier with a crossbow then with a compound?
I don't think so..
It boils down to tradition and self imposed opinions.
Yep..
Will legal for all cross bows kill a few more does? I doubt it very seriously,
Yes it will. Crossbowers killed over 54,000 deer in Ohio last year.
I mean look at the PCR and the percentage they are given credit for... And they are cheaper and less painful then shotguns. The reason not many deer showed up on the deer harvest reports is because they were using the old forms. No place for PCR on them.
I think they have new forms this year so that will cnage,..big time.
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Post by swilk on Jul 15, 2010 18:26:01 GMT -5
McDonalds doenst offer senior discounts???
Not because I dont agree with what they say .... that honestly has nothing to do with it .... but I dont put a whole lot of faith in a survey that has a return rate of 2% of licensed hunters.
I never got one. I believe you said you have never gotten one. Nobody I know has gotten one.
And the online surveys are not what I would call reliable either.
Kind of like when I watch MSNBC at night and they talk about how recent surveys support their position on such and such a matter. Turn over to FOX and they talk about how recent surveys support their position on the same matter MSNBC was talking about.
Just dont trust em.
To trust the IDNR surveys is like saying you really believe Obama still has a slightly positive approval rating in this nation. (which i just looked at the RCP combination and it looks like he is at -.4 right now ....)
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Post by deerman1 on Jul 15, 2010 19:38:20 GMT -5
I think there's a very few deer hunters that have more than a little ego problem. Not just with the antler obsession, but with control issues as well. If you look at recent history and think about what's been happenning, it becomes pretty apparent it is as much about social engineering as it is about deer hunting. It started out as a desire by a few to limit other hunters because they weren't killing the kind of bucks they wanted. When the first efforts weren't sufficient to allow them to kill the big bucks they wanted another step was needed. And another. And another. It's not long before it becomes more about the control than producing big bucks. Great post right here the IDNR should hear these words verbatum from every hunter that is aginst the good old boys network!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2010 19:43:18 GMT -5
I don't see how anyone can "expect" to recieve a stistical survey when they are taken. Might be 20,000 out of 250,000 recieve them. Doesn't mean they aren't accurate and that the results shouldn't be used.
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Post by swilk on Jul 15, 2010 20:13:39 GMT -5
I tried to go back through some posts to refresh my memory on just how those poll numbers turned out.
Does anyone have the results of the mailed/paper survey concerning xbows?
Going back through the posts that Woody made about the online survey it looks as though the majority of those who responded supported use of xbows by those 65 and older ..... "Crossbows should be used in all of the early archery season" was 4th. Not sure how that means "Secondly surveys (random and online) conducted by the IDNR says more hunters want crossbows in all archery season than don't."
What am I missing? Was there another online survey with different results?
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Post by swilk on Jul 15, 2010 20:15:37 GMT -5
The crossbow questions were:6. Please express your views on expanding the crossbow season:Crossbows should be used in the early archery season for all hunters aged 65+ (current Natural Resources Advisory Council consideration) (FIRST MOST SUPPORTED)Crossbows should be used in all Urban Deer Zones (SECOND MOST SUPPORTED)Crossbows should be used in the early archery season that overlaps the firearm season (current Natural Resources Advisory Council consideration) (THIRD MOST SUPPORTED) Crossbows should be used in all of the early archery season (FOURTH MOST SUPPORTED) Crossbows should be used in some of the early archery season (FIFTH MOST SUPPORTED)Crossbow use should not be expanded beyond what is currently allowed (SIXTH MOST SUPPORTED)You know, if they adopt NUMBER FOURTH MOST SUPPORTED then that will take care of the TOP FIVE MOST SUPPORTED. .
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 15, 2010 20:30:51 GMT -5
The crossbow questions were:6. Please express your views on expanding the crossbow season:Crossbows should be used in the early archery season for all hunters aged 65+ (current Natural Resources Advisory Council consideration) (FIRST MOST SUPPORTED)Crossbows should be used in all Urban Deer Zones (SECOND MOST SUPPORTED)Crossbows should be used in the early archery season that overlaps the firearm season (current Natural Resources Advisory Council consideration) (THIRD MOST SUPPORTED) Crossbows should be used in all of the early archery season (FOURTH MOST SUPPORTED) Crossbows should be used in some of the early archery season (FIFTH MOST SUPPORTED)Crossbow use should not be expanded beyond what is currently allowed (SIXTH MOST SUPPORTED)You know, if they adopt NUMBER FOURTH MOST SUPPORTED then that will take care of the TOP FIVE MOST SUPPORTED. Yes, sir. I am aware of that and so is the IDNR.. The results of " Crossbows should be used in all of the early archery season" was 42% supported or strongly supported full inclusion of xbows, 26% were neutral, and 32% opposed or strongly opposed. Hmmm..my guess is if they expanded the present crossbow seaosn to include the early archery then a lot of the "neutrals" and a few of the "opposed" would join in..
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Post by duff on Jul 15, 2010 20:31:43 GMT -5
I for one think that the good ole boys organazation SUCKS. How bout someone start an INDIANA GUNHUNTERS ASSOCIATION. Seems us gun hunters don't have a say. Sign me up!
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 15, 2010 20:36:01 GMT -5
In 2005 the IDNR surveyed deer hunters in all 92 Indiana counties in proportion to the total deer license sales that had occurred by county in 2002. The survey was mailed to 19,429 hunters and, after a follow-up mailing, 8,344 hunters returned the survey. The results were: 49.5% supports crossbow usage in ANY archery segment 34.8% who oppose crossbow usage in ANY archery segment. That is 14.7% more hunters that favored allowing crossbows in ANY archery season than opposed them..
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Post by swilk on Jul 15, 2010 20:36:42 GMT -5
So the survey results were split between the paper survey and the online survey.
Paper showed that majority of respondents supported full inclusion and the online showed a majority of respondents supported inclusion by those 65 and older.
From your earlier post I was under the impression that both the online and the paper survey said majority said full inclusion.
Still dont lend much faith in either one of them even though the online survey falls more in line with my thinking.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 15, 2010 20:58:34 GMT -5
So the survey results were split between the paper survey and the online survey. Paper showed that majority of respondents supported full inclusion and the online showed a majority of respondents supported inclusion by those 65 and older. From your earlier post I was under the impression that both the online and the paper survey said majority said full inclusion. Still dont lend much faith in either one of them even though the online survey falls more in line with my thinking. I don't think I said "majority" and if I did it was in error. I think I said "more" people wanted them than didn't. I trust the random mailed survey a LOT more than the online survey. The random surveys was for sure Indiana deer hunters and statistically valid.. The online survey could have been answered by some Chinese guy in CHINA. Keep in mind that this random Indina deer hunter survey was back in 2005. Crossbows have become a LOT more acceptd since then.
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Post by Decatur on Jul 15, 2010 21:02:25 GMT -5
From the hunters I know, crossbow acceptance has grown by leaps and bounds in the last 5 years! I for one you used to be a rabid anti crossbower. Until research taught me I was worried about nothing.
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