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Post by hornharvester on Jul 14, 2010 12:17:38 GMT -5
if these new rules were really thought up and initiated by the IDNR most of use could live by them even though we don't agree BUT, when they excluded crossbows in early archery and put an age limit on hunting with one unless you are handi-capped then who is stupid enough to believe the IBA & IDHA didn't have a hand in making these proposals? If this rule change was about reducing the herd and doe harvest, crossbows in all archery season would have done both. It would have increased hunters, increased license sales, increased harvest numbers and increased revenue for sporting goods shops. A win-win situation for all. But to exclude the crossbow shows truly what this rule change is for........antlers at all cost. Its the same sh_t we were force feed when the OBR was pushed threw but plated different and perfumed to make it smell good. From what I understand and I might be wrong the good ol' boys network is alive and strong in decision making at the IDNR........politics as usuall.....h.h. PS... I learned a new phrase....killing two - three button bucks in a season is called "genocide on the herd"....
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Post by DEERTRACKS on Jul 14, 2010 12:27:38 GMT -5
Right on hh!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by boonechaser on Jul 14, 2010 12:28:10 GMT -5
I agree does'nt make much sense not to include crossbow. And sure special interest group's are leading the charge for proposed changes. As far as button buck's go. I myself try not to shoot, but to each their own. Those yearlings meat is pretty tender and sometimes it's damn near impossible to tell male from female.
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Post by Decatur on Jul 14, 2010 12:33:18 GMT -5
I don't specifically target button bucks, but I have shot one accidently. Antler lust is killing our great sport. "genocide on the herd" ROTFLMFAO! Who said that?!?!?!?
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Post by thecommissioner on Jul 14, 2010 12:54:52 GMT -5
The decison to place the crossbow age limit at 64 appears to be arbitrary and certainly discriminatory. Frankly, what is the difference between someone who is 63 and 64? On what data was 64 selected?
This rule alone raises serious questions about the credibility, not to mention the transparency, of the process. Some clear headed and politically astute manager at IDNR needs to brush a little whiteout on the line prohibiting crossbow use by anyone under 64 years old.
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Post by huxbux on Jul 14, 2010 13:01:12 GMT -5
I think there's a very few deer hunters that have more than a little ego problem. Not just with the antler obsession, but with control issues as well.
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Post by huxbux on Jul 14, 2010 13:59:28 GMT -5
"genocide on the herd" ROTFLMFAO! Who said that?!?!?!? "I do not think you know what that word means"
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 14, 2010 14:15:00 GMT -5
Gents, We all know exactly where this "no crossbows allowed" in the early archery season came from and it was not the IDNR. The IDNR considered all kinds of out of state data for the changing the firearm and muzzleloader seasons, but when it came to allowing the Indiana deer hunters another archery choice for all of the archery season that ended. The IDNR is very good at gathering data so I am quite sure that they are aware of all the good crossbow data out there. In fact, I KNOW that they were. We live right next door to Ohio and I’m pretty sure they have talked to Dr. Michael Tonkovich on numerous occasions about this subject. Yes, crossbows can help in the deer harvest that is needed. There is no doubt about it. Last year, for the first time, Michigan allowed crossbow participation in the archery season. Participation in the archery season was up 7 percent. This is after many years of a serious decline. The archery harvest went up 10.5 percent statewide. It went up an amazing 19 percent in the southern Lower Peninsula where the herd is the biggest. Isn’t that what we are after? More dead deer in heavily populated areas? See – detnews.com/article/20100624/SPORTS07/6240390/1435/sports07/Michigan-likely-to-put-crossbow-on-equal-footing-with-bowhunting-for-deer#ixzz0ruWXsmN9Also last year the state of Pennsylvania started allowing their deer hunters the choice of using a crossbow in the archery season. In Pennsylvania – The 2009-10 hunting seasons marked the first time crossbows were legal in statewide archery deer seasons for all hunters. In those 19 WMUs outside of the three urban areas, the archery harvest increased 13 percent. The proportion of the archery harvest taken by crossbows in the 19 WMUs increased from 15 percent to 30 percent. Crossbows have been legal in urban WMUs of 2B, 5C, and 5D since 2004. www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/game-commission-releases-2009-10-deer-harvest-estimates-88846977.htmlWhy make all these other big time changes and totally exclude crossbows in deer reduction formula? Why? Maybe Mike Tonkovich, Ohio’s deer biologist said it best when he said: "We're expanding seasons, increasing bags to ridiculous levels, we're hunting backyards, we're offering incentives and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on processing subsidies to try and encourage the harvest of additional deer," Tonkovich told an audience at the Archery Trades Association meetings in December. "We're removing every regulation hurdle, every logjam possible to try and encourage hunter participation. About the only thing left is to harvest the deer for the hunter. And yet at the very same regulation meeting, we are resisting giving hunters a choice (of crossbows) out of fear that we'll upset our traditional archers." A couple of the present crossbow proposals will do very little, if anything in recruiting hunters, retaining older hunters, raising IDNR and retail revenues/sale taxes and helping in the herd management. How important are crossbows in raising revenues and recruiting/retaining older hunters? Russ Mason the Wildlife Division Chief in the state of Michigan reviewed the results of this past hunting season where expanded crossbow opportunities were available and said: • Crossbow statistics show that 45,693 free crossbow stamps were issued in 2009 equaling $36 million in economic activity; • The average age of crossbow users was 53 where the average age of deer hunters was 42; The Indiana crossbow proposals: “64 and older”? That is way too old of a limit. Data from states that keep age records show that bowhunters (if they do drop out) do so at a much earlier age. 50 to 55 would have been a lot more of a benefit in retaining older hunters. If they dropped out at 50 to 55 we are not going to get them back in at age 64. See the Michigan age data above. Yes, the IDNR has data from each of these states. “Crossbow is the firearm season”? Very few, if any crossbowers will hunt during that time period. The recent IDNR online survey showed that only 5% of the present bowhunters hunted with their bows during the firearm season. Why would we think that crossbowers would be any different? Consider also that these bowhunters already own a bow. An Indiana deer hunter is not going to hang up his 200 yard firearm and purchase a $700 crossbow that is good for 40 yard to hunt during the firearm seasons. It just won’t happen. There will be no gain in hunters or deer killed by sticking crossbows in the firearm season. Michigan tried that for about 8 years and they received absolutely no benefits from it. Put crossbows in the archery season where they belong and the state will reap the benefits of hunter recruitment, hunter retention, increased deer harvest and revenues to the IDNR and archery shops, restaurants, gasoline stations, motels, etc, etc, etc. Not to mention sales taxes and PR funds. See the Michigan "economic activity" above.
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Post by boonechaser on Jul 14, 2010 14:30:44 GMT -5
Then why not do it? Are you saying IBA and IDHA association's were against?? I'm a bowhunter and have no problem with crossbow hunting. What's the problem?? I don't get it.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 14, 2010 14:43:22 GMT -5
Then why not do it? Are you saying IBA and IDHA association's were against?? I'm a bowhunter and have no problem with crossbow hunting. What's the problem?? I don't get it. Politics aka the good old boy network.. It does not matter that crossbow wil recruit the youths and women, retain older hunters, kill more deer, raise more revenues for the IDNR and retail outlets. The IDHA, the IBA and the ISR is against them .. My opinion is that the IDNR did not want to buck heads with these groups and the NRC..I may be wrong, but I doubt it.
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Post by swilk on Jul 14, 2010 15:00:52 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with having an opinion on matters ..... including if you want or do not want x-bows during archery season.
A person not wanting x-boys during archery season does not make them part of the "good ol boys network".
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Post by Decatur on Jul 14, 2010 15:01:26 GMT -5
"genocide on the herd" ROTFLMFAO! Who said that?!?!?!? "I do not think you know what that word means" Inconceiveable! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 14, 2010 17:24:04 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with having an opinion on matters ..... including if you want or do not want x-bows during archery season. A person not wanting x-boys during archery season does not make them part of the "good ol boys network". Ya think that is the only thing that they are influencing?
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Post by mrfixit on Jul 14, 2010 17:30:46 GMT -5
I think we need to get real and just find a good lawyer and file a class action discrimination lawsuit if these proposals get adopted for the 2011 season. Not only is this discriminatory towards to folks who aren't handicapped but aren't in physical shape to draw a bow but also the working poor who can afford nothing but a muzzle loader and felons who can hunt with nothing but a muzzle loader. Those are several I can think of right off the top of my head and I'm sure if I thought about it long enough I can think of several more groups this is discriminatory towards. In fact the current system as it stands is quite discriminatory. There needs to be equal opportunity for all groups of hunters, not just bow hunters.
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Post by swilk on Jul 14, 2010 17:59:21 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with having an opinion on matters ..... including if you want or do not want x-bows during archery season. A person not wanting x-boys during archery season does not make them part of the "good ol boys network". Ya think that is the only thing that they are influencing? Wasnt necessarily talking about the stakeholders you mentioned .... just the observation that lots and lots of guys around the state dont want x-bows during archery season. Me being one of them ..... and I definitely aint no part of any good ol boys network.
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Post by swilk on Jul 14, 2010 18:00:51 GMT -5
I think we need to get real and just find a good lawyer and file a class action discrimination lawsuit if these proposals get adopted for the 2011 season. Not only is this discriminatory towards to folks who aren't handicapped but aren't in physical shape to draw a bow but also the working poor who can afford nothing but a muzzle loader and felons who can hunt with nothing but a muzzle loader. Those are several I can think of right off the top of my head and I'm sure if I thought about it long enough I can think of several more groups this is discriminatory towards. In fact the current system as it stands is quite discriminatory. There needs to be equal opportunity for all groups of hunters, not just bow hunters. Please tell me you are kidding??
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Post by deerman1 on Jul 14, 2010 18:55:15 GMT -5
Ya think that is the only thing that they are influencing? Wasnt necessarily talking about the stakeholders you mentioned .... just the observation that lots and lots of guys around the state dont want x-bows during archery season. Me being one of them ..... and I definitely aint no part of any good ol boys network. Why are you so afraid of an xbow or xbow hunter to be included in bow season ?? I would guess you have never actually sat down or stood up and took the time " a few hours or days" to actually use one long enough to have a real degree of experiance have you ??!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2010 19:00:03 GMT -5
[quote Wasnt necessarily talking about the stakeholders you mentioned .... just the observation that lots and lots of guys around the state dont want x-bows during archery season. Me being one of them ..... and I definitely aint no part of any good ol boys network. The first change the DNR should have made should have been to remove the barriers in place that inhibit antlerless harvest......one of them is crossbow ruls as they are.
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Post by swilk on Jul 14, 2010 19:14:29 GMT -5
Wasnt necessarily talking about the stakeholders you mentioned .... just the observation that lots and lots of guys around the state dont want x-bows during archery season. Me being one of them ..... and I definitely aint no part of any good ol boys network. Why are you so afraid of an xbow or xbow hunter to be included in bow season ?? I would guess you have never actually sat down or stood up and took the time " a few hours or days" to actually use one long enough to have a real degree of experiance have you ??!! No surprise but you have guessed incorrectly. I am very familiar with xbows....bought my father one to hunt with and set it up for him to use in indiana to use on whitetails and elk in colorado. I am happy that disabled hunters are able to use them and prefer that expansion past that not happen.
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Post by swilk on Jul 14, 2010 19:16:55 GMT -5
[quote Wasnt necessarily talking about the stakeholders you mentioned .... just the observation that lots and lots of guys around the state dont want x-bows during archery season. Me being one of them ..... and I definitely aint no part of any good ol boys network. The first change the DNR should have made should have been to remove the barriers in place that inhibit antlerless harvest......one of them is crossbow ruls as they are. Our opinions differ.
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