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Post by Hoosier Hunter on May 28, 2009 20:39:59 GMT -5
I hope that you can post detailed info that the IDNR has at some point. It'll be nice to see the factual info than listen to all the hearsay.
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Post by HuntMeister on May 28, 2009 20:58:28 GMT -5
I keep seeing (on other sites) a $75,000 set up fee for deer AND another set up fee of $75,000 for deer. I have seen the IDNR proposal and the set up cost is nowhere near that. One company says it is $7,500 per set up and that includes numerous animals. They charge 56 to 58 cents per call depending on if they use the IDNR 800#. The other company sets up for free but costs more per call. They charge 83 cents per call. The estimated cost for an entire YEAR is from $45,120 to $72,625 depending on which company is chosen. I have seen all kinds of numbers tossed out there... to the point that I just spent the last hour on 3 sites re-reading the threads to try and determine just what are the costs. Seems like a lot of misdirection out there regarding costs, I just cannot believe it would cost more to operate Telecheck vs the current way nor can I believe it would be expensive to setup with all the other states that are currently doing this. Woody, is there a link to this DNR proposal with the cost estimates available for all to read? Also, are costs posted for our current way of doing things? As far as I am concerned, cost is the only argument left for not implementing Telecheck as all the other negatives, to me, have been disproved through much discussion here and on other sites. IIRC, even our DNR folks are all for this.
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Post by Woody Williams on May 28, 2009 21:18:50 GMT -5
Woody, AGAIN I AM NOT OPPOSED TO THIS!>>>>>>>>> But I was at the NRC meeting and the numbers you are using are dead wrong. GunDude I have the IDNR Cost estimates from the proposal in front of me as I type. They are exactly as I posted them. I'll ask if I can scan and post the page..
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Post by Woody Williams on May 28, 2009 21:27:11 GMT -5
I keep seeing (on other sites) a $75,000 set up fee for deer AND another set up fee of $75,000 for deer. I have seen the IDNR proposal and the set up cost is nowhere near that. One company says it is $7,500 per set up and that includes numerous animals. They charge 56 to 58 cents per call depending on if they use the IDNR 800#. The other company sets up for free but costs more per call. They charge 83 cents per call. The estimated cost for an entire YEAR is from $45,120 to $72,625 depending on which company is chosen. I have seen all kinds of numbers tossed out there... to the point that I just spent the last hour on 3 sites re-reading the threads to try and determine just what are the costs. Seems like a lot of misdirection out there regarding costs, I just cannot believe it would cost more to operate Telecheck vs the current way nor can I believe it would be expensive to setup with all the other states that are currently doing this. There has to be some mis-communication on this. I'm admittedly not the sharpest knife in the drawer but the way I read this cost estimate it is exactly how I posted it. It is pretty simply spelled out. I am not aware of it being in electronic form anywhere on the net. I have not seen any of that either. Other states do say that they save money by telecheck. I guess it is posible that their old method costs more than ours does. The only thing I've seen is a bunch of "what ifs" that are easily rebuted.
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Post by HuntMeister on May 28, 2009 21:38:11 GMT -5
I have seen all kinds of numbers tossed out there... to the point that I just spent the last hour on 3 sites re-reading the threads to try and determine just what are the costs. Seems like a lot of misdirection out there regarding costs, I just cannot believe it would cost more to operate Telecheck vs the current way nor can I believe it would be expensive to setup with all the other states that are currently doing this. There has to be some mis-communication on this. I'm admittedly not the sharpest knife in the drawer but the way I read this cost estimate it is exactly how I posted it. It is pretty simply spelled out. I am not aware of it being in electronic form anywhere on the net. I have not seen any of that either. Other states do say that they save money by telecheck. I guess it is posible that their old method costs more than ours does. The only thing I've seen is a bunch of "what ifs" that are easily rebuted. Woody, thanks for the thoughts and btw I hope I didn't seem as I was doubting your numbers as I was not. I am just a wee bit frustrated with all the different numbers being thrown around. Seems a fellow on another site is quoting the same $$ as you too! Just boils down to "I want to read about it not hear about it" I'm done in for today, talk to you gents tomorrow.
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Post by Woody Williams on May 28, 2009 21:45:43 GMT -5
There has to be some mis-communication on this. I'm admittedly not the sharpest knife in the drawer but the way I read this cost estimate it is exactly how I posted it. It is pretty simply spelled out. I am not aware of it being in electronic form anywhere on the net. I have not seen any of that either. Other states do say that they save money by telecheck. I guess it is posible that their old method costs more than ours does. The only thing I've seen is a bunch of "what ifs" that are easily rebuted. Woody, thanks for the thoughts and btw I hope I didn't seem as I was doubting your numbers as I was not. I am just a wee bit frustrated with all the different numbers being thrown around. No.. I didn't think that your were doubting me at all. It is good to question. LOL... he has the same IDNR proposal that I do.. he did go into more detail as I was not aware that that the 70,000 was for initial hunter sign up that is really not about telecheck as much as it is the IODNR trying to get a handle on how many hunters there are out there.. So that yearly total that I quoted would be a LOT less if that is dropped. Me too...
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Post by gundude on May 28, 2009 21:46:27 GMT -5
Woody I was at the meeting and heard the report. in fact I interrupted the report and asked for them to repeat the start up numbers. ( ask Jack) it wasn't 7,500. what ever numbers you got from JOHN are wrong. I understand your position on this issue but make sure that the facts are straight. Thats all
The numbers that I still have that wrote down ( Jack correct me if I am wrong here) are 60 to 75k START up for TURKEYS only.. Deer would then be added later.
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Post by jackc99 on May 28, 2009 21:57:06 GMT -5
Woody - Gundude has the same numbers you do. I know because I sent them to both of you. Now it depends on how you read it. As you have said it will cost $45,120 to $72,625 for the first year. One of the vendors is including a start-up cost the first year of $7500 (likely the vendor the state would select). I guess what's not being said is that the 2nd year cost is very similar to the first year cost (~ $45k-$70k per year). What we really need to know (and I haven't been able to pin down a number) is what the CURRENT costs for the check-in program are. I pretty much doubt we'll be able to run down all the associated costs but I'm GUESSING that telecheck is actually going to cost the DNR more than our current system. I don't have a real issue with that if we get better data but I know that some folks do.
In my mind this issue is very similar to switching over the license program from a paper program to a paperless/point-of-sale program. It didn't raise the furor among license holders the way the telecheck has but it certainly put the hurt on the license vendors as they had to install data lines and buy computer equipment.
Jack
Everyone who has a copy of the 86 page report should read the last paragraph of page 2 = "Bid estimates range from $55,000-$78,000+ for a TURKEY tele-harvest system, depending on call volume". This is the quote that is being kicked around as the "start-up" cost when in fact is the entire first year cost. Also, gundude is correct that this does not include deer. by the way I spoke with state computer IT person at the NRC meeting and they don't want anything to do with this.
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Post by Woody Williams on May 28, 2009 22:03:45 GMT -5
Woody I was at the meeting and heard the report. in fact I interrupted the report and asked for them to repeat the start up numbers. ( ask Jack) it wasn't 7,500. what ever numbers you got from JOHN are wrong. I understand your position on this issue but make sure that the facts are straight. Thats all The numbers that I still have that wrote down ( Jack correct me if I am wrong here) are 60 to 75k START up for TURKEYS only.. Deer would then be added later. Then it was mis-stated at the meeting or you all misunderstood.. These numbers did not come from John. They came from the IDNR Proposal. See my post above this. That is a scan of the cost page from the proposal. That high of $72,625 for one compny (no set up fee) and $52,620 from another company ($7,500 set up fee) is WITH an initial pre-registration of 70,000 turkey hunters which is really not needed for telecheck. I think that is the IDNR just wanting to get a handle of how many real turkey hunters are out there. This can be pared down without the pre-registration to where it will save the IDNR some serious money and hunters a bunch of money.
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Post by gundude on May 28, 2009 22:50:38 GMT -5
Ok bigger fish to fry for me. U guys hash it out
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Post by cambygsp on May 29, 2009 5:08:44 GMT -5
Finding the actual costs involved with the current check system will be tricky at best.
I am sure we can find the invoice for the metal tags (deer) and stickers (turkey) the state buys. I am also sure we can find the invoice for the printing of the hand written logs.
But what does it cost to have those logs, tags and stickers shipped to the state.
What does it cost to have a state employee (or a few) devide those logs, tags and stickers up to get them ready to ship them out to each check station AND document what station got what tags, stickers and logs?.......I am sure that information is pretty important to the current system.
What does it cost to actually ship them to each check station.
Are there training sessions for the current check stations to teach them what they need to know in checking the animal.
What does it cost the state to collect the information after the check has been made. I was once told that Conservation Officers made the rounds in their districts and collected the check in logs and somehow got them to a central location.
If this is in fact the case then we need to consider the cost for the C/O labor the fuel they are burning and the wear on their vehicle.
We also need to consider how many leads the officer may get while talking to the folks at the check stations and how valuable that visit is.
Now once all the check station logs get to a central location what happens then. I assume that the state pays someone (or a few) to enter all the data from the logs in to a central computer system.
This current system sure seems pretty involved for what it is.
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Post by jackc99 on May 29, 2009 10:38:08 GMT -5
Camby's right again!!!!
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Post by bschwein on May 29, 2009 13:03:12 GMT -5
If that proposed estimate is right (i would say it is since its on paper and not just random posted #'s) I don't see how this wouldn't save the state money.
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Post by Woody Williams on May 29, 2009 17:17:07 GMT -5
From the three Indiana hunting forums...
From Indiana Sportsmen
I would like see Indiana with Tele-Check - 24 ( 52.17%) I'm not in favor of Tele-Check - 10 (21.74% ) I don't care either way. - 12 ( 26.09% )
From Hoosier Hunting
I'm in favor of Tele-Check for Indiana -24 ( 56% ) I would not support Tele-Check - 14 ( 33% ) It doesn't matter to me - 5 ( 12% )
Hunting Indiana
I support telecheck - 47 ( 71.2% ) I do not support tele-check - 12 ( 18.1% ) I dont care - 7 ( 10.6% )
Grand Total
I support telecheck – 95 ( 61.3% )
I do not support tele-check –36 ( 23.2% )
I don’t care – 24 ( 15.5%
Total votes - 155
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Post by greghopper on May 29, 2009 17:33:16 GMT -5
I great post on Telecheck ( from another site)........Here goes.......... No WAY for Tele-Check in my book.......here's my thoughts.
**Hunting is a Social Sport.........always will be, always has been. We constantly say we need other hunters, we need others interested in hunting, we don't want to see the great social tradition die. We say we are a social nation and enjoy being around each other........yet we fill our lives with e-mail, texts, drive our cars home with our electric garage door openers so as we pull in we can shut it behind us and not even have to talk with the neighbors, and avoid yet another meal with the family at the table since we all haved text each other within the last hour.........etc, etc, etc..........and another day goes by where we don't have to be social and interact face to face in the name of "conveniance"............but we scratch our heads as we feel more distant with those around us........and wonder how in the hellll do so many people "not know or care about others" anymore in this world. .................Keeping that in mind, I see one of the Telecheck Flaws is that it is one more tool to ERODE our hunting social network. You can sit here and type your lies about "I hate the check station experience"..........or maybe you really do and are that anti-social or introverted..............but most cut their teeth in hunting as a kid with a ride to the check-station and saw the EXCITEMENT at those places, most can relate to talking with others there about their first deer/turkey and how the "moment went down" as you leaned up against their pick-up truck, the crowd standing around the scales with others patting others on the back.................Guys/Gals, I'm here to tell you.....it's one of the most positive social inspiring EVENTS in hunting that still happens across this great state..................and you want to kill it in the name of conveniance??? What's next.............Tele-Weddings?, Tele-Funerals?, Tele-4th of July where they set off some fireworks in one spot only in the USA and take some pics of it to e-mail everyone in the name of conveniance and cost savings, Tele-Christmas, Tele-Birthdays, Tele-Church etc, etc...............you get the point. I feel so strongly about this that I firmly believe that if you want to kill off this tradition and POWERFUL tool for social recruitment and social retention of excited hunters..........please consider getting out of hunting.......you will probably continue to find other ways to make hunting less social and more conveniant for you..........or try to turn hunting into the worst thing..........ONLY ABOUT ME. I'm flat out tired of people coming up with ways on how to "shorten the social rope" in the name of selfish conveniance and willing to murder social memories and social experiences that strengthen the things we value in this life..........for what...............more time to find a way to make your life more "conveniant"??
**The Economic Effect of those that run those check-stations. Four letters guys/gals..........G.......O........N.........E. We constantly read in our headlines how tight things are.........take away 500+ hunters anually that check in their deer/turkey, take away the lookers, passers by that see those deer and just have to make a special trip on opening day to see who scored and shake others hands, take away the friends and people in the community that get that phone call..."go down to the check station and look at what Fred shot".....they all go down over lunch, grab a few cokes and a slice of pizza at the check- station and look at Fred's picture. Guys/Gals........go to the owners of these check stations and tell them you are about to propose something (Tele-Check) that will litterally take thousands of $$ of potential revenue from them, cause you will be advocating elimination of all of the above......and countless other reasons that people go to that check-station and while they are there....they spend a little $$. Go look them in the eye and tell them you want that gone from them.........Go do it. And for the one or two moron business owners that say "good riddence".........they should consider getting out of being a check station all together tomorrow. Let someone else that embraces hunting, social strengthening, and good hometown community economics "have the keys".
**The Accountability Factor..............Someone/Others are there at the check station. Eye witnesses, Cameras, People that want to see, CO's that want to see your kill....and ask a question to that bowhunter "can I see what arrows you are using".........for ALL the right reasons. Yup.......this is the short list of what those that want to cheat the system hate the most.............having to deal with other people that might make their criminal actions more difficult. The list goes SKY HIGH in "the name of non-criminal convienance"..........and those that have ill thoughts, the list goes SKY HIGH in "the name of criminal opportunity"...........and Tele-Check gives them more. Don't think the general public take advantage of opportunity??............try this.............Go set out some piles of wood throughout this great "honest" state and put signs on them. Some piles say....."pay at the door". Some piles say "call me and tell me how much money you left at the door". Then come back and tell us who made more money at the end of the year in "the name of conveniance" . And ohhh.....and don't forget.....we are about to lay out in front of the "trustable general public" something related to ego, stature, food, art, recreation, etc, etc all wrapped up in one package..........not just a piece of wood to place on our campfire. THINK ABOUT IT WITH YOUR HEAD OUT OF A HOLE PEOPLE. The accountability factor with Tele-Check is scarey.............dang scarey.
Summary...........this is not just a "law-enforcement" issue, conveniance issue, wildlife age/population data collection issue.............it's much much more than that. Take a look at both sides of this coin..........I know I have...........and what I am clinging to and encouraging others to cling to is the things that some in our society want us to forget as important.
Just glad we have places like this to see all points before "signing on the dotted line".
Voice your opinion where it really counts.........not on this poll............with the NRC. I see alot of people that haven't decided either way here as indicated on the pole. Hopefully reading some of our collective thoughts will help you decided.
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Post by Decatur on May 29, 2009 18:03:01 GMT -5
It makes me laugh when people bring in the "economic loss" for check stations. I've worked at two over the years and most sccessful hunters are in a hurry to either, show off their deer to friends/family, get to butchering, get deer to processor or all of the above. They may buy a pop and a candy bar, but that's it. If deer checking is keeping their doors open, they need to look at their business plan! I agree it will take out part of the social aspect, but if it's not a friend or family member, I don't care if they see my deer, or me theirs.
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Post by Woody Williams on May 29, 2009 18:11:37 GMT -5
It makes me laugh when people bring in the "economic loss" for check stations. I've worked at two over the years and most sccessful hunters are in a hurry to either, show off their deer to friends/family, get to butchering, get deer to processor or all of the above. They may buy a pop and a candy bar, but that's it. If deer checking is keeping their doors open, they need to look at their business plan! I agree it will take out part of the social aspect, but if it's not a friend or family member, I don't care if they see my deer, or me theirs. Ditto....A few days a year is not going to make or break a place. If it does then you are 100% spot on - they need a new business plan. BTW - I've seen a couple of these "social encounters" were blows were almost thrown over people saying "Who would want to shoot that dink" or "It's ONLY a skin head"."
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Post by Decatur on May 29, 2009 18:37:39 GMT -5
I've seen a guy knock a young teen's first buck, with the result of an upset kid and a REALLY upset father! It doesn't happen much, but it happens.
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Post by bschwein on May 29, 2009 21:32:26 GMT -5
I worked at a check station for 5-6 years. It was more of a hassle than anything during gun season. Bow season didn't have enough to worry about. However during gun season, It took time away from the paying customer. Yeah, I liked going out and looking at that "big" buck but the 4 people standing in line waiting to purchase something didn't always want to wait while I went out to look and gab with the guy. We very seldom sold something to the people checking in the deer. Some would buy slugs or whatever, but for the majority they were in a hurry to get some where else. Most of the people buying slugs would've came there regardless if they had deer to check in.
As for the social part, I don't see how this is a negative for telecheck. I can't say I just stood around check stations waiting on deer to come in. Maybe people do, I sure don't.
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Post by Decatur on May 29, 2009 22:36:17 GMT -5
Gas Can
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