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Post by swilk on Apr 12, 2007 9:40:25 GMT -5
ok. 1/2 the price.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 12, 2007 11:01:13 GMT -5
50gr of powder is more than enough to create 5 or 600 lbs of muzzle energy. You could easily make a light recoiling MZ mirror whatever PCR's ballistics you wanted. Just like a PCR .... as bullet weight, velocity and energy increase so does recoil. "5 or 600 lbs of muzzle energy" is not near enough unless you can stick the gun in the deer's side before pulling the rigger. It is the "35# pull bow". It is generally recognized that it is a 800 foot pounds minimum for deer sized game . Some even say 1,000 foot pounds.
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Post by swilk on Apr 12, 2007 11:03:35 GMT -5
.
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Post by swilk on Apr 12, 2007 11:11:34 GMT -5
ok.
We will increase the load to 70grains or so ..... still light recoil. Cheap. Accurate. Basically it is an excellent choice for women and children that is already available.
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Post by mbogo on Apr 12, 2007 13:40:59 GMT -5
ok. We will increase the load to 70grains or so ..... still light recoil. Cheap. Accurate. Basically it is an excellent choice for women and children that is already available. And why exactly should a woman or child be forced to use a front loading, difficult to load, and often hard to clean weapon during general firearms season simply because they can not handle the recoil of a shotgun? The real question is why would anyone oppose the addition of any weapon that does not exceed the effective range potential or performance capabilities of currently accepted weapons? ?
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Post by indianahick on Apr 12, 2007 14:05:52 GMT -5
Okay I am not for HPR's but am for PCR's. But only for one reason, the range that a bullet may travel. I do not believe that most of Indiana does not have enough safe distance without any human habitation to warrant the usage of HPR's. There is a lot of difference between 1.5 to 2 miles to 5 or more for HPR's.
Are you really serious about 50 grams of black powder? In a 32 it would work for squirrels. In a 45 or 50 it would work for spot shoots. I believe that is the major powder load used by many spot shooters.
Somehow I keep getting the idea that you are a person that absolutely hates those that are called the brown and downers and if you could somehow figure out how you would stop the sale of licenses to those people. Not only that you would like to see the removal of firearms from hunting and the usage of traditional (your opinion of it) archery only.
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Post by swilk on Apr 12, 2007 14:10:07 GMT -5
mbogo:
So, you would be in favor of allowing all HPR's then?
Nobody is forcing anyone else to use anything ..... some people like shooting MZ's ... they dont find them hard to load or difficult to clean. I am not one of those people .... 'tis the smell of sulfer that drove me away from them (at my wifes request).
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Post by mbogo on Apr 12, 2007 14:18:55 GMT -5
I would be in favor of allowing any caliber that did not exceed shotgun or muzzleloader performance, but at this time I am not in favor of allowing any and all HPRs.
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Post by swilk on Apr 12, 2007 14:21:02 GMT -5
You almost have it right .... allow me to make a few corrections.
I do not hate brown and downers .... most of the guys I know who hunt would be classified as such. When a friend or anyone else shows up with a forky or basket rack buck I pat them on the back and say congrats. If any of these people hunt with me on property that I have the permission to hunt (they are basically a guest of mine, at the permission of the owner that I do such) I ask them to set their standards a little higher.
There are exceptions to that as well ...... youngsters or other new comers to the sport of hunting. I would never dream of asking either to not shoot anything.
Moving on. Firearms seasons. I used to live for firearms season .... it was the time I spent with my dad and all was well. Then people started getting more and more rude. I made a choice ..... instead of trying to change what other people were doing I will change what I was doing. The easiest way to avoid the rude people was to avoid gun season. It gets worse and worse each year as more and more people are competing for the same pieces of ground. I talked my dad into obtaining a handicap permit and bowhunting with me. Problem solved.
Now, archery gear. It has nothing to do with crossbows or anything else. I just dont personally see a crossbow as being the same thing as longbows, compounds and recurves. And because of this I do not support them being legalized as such. They are available for use by people who need them and that is what really matters.
Now ... my reasoning behind the recent posts. I was having a little fun. It is entertaining to watch people flip flop around their ethics, wants, needs, opinions ..... everything.
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Post by swilk on Apr 12, 2007 14:24:19 GMT -5
The real question is why would anyone oppose the addition of any weapon that does not exceed the effective range potential or performance capabilities of currently accepted weapons? ? What HPR's would you exclude. We currently accept the use of 30/06, .308, .338 ..... and on and on .... in TC handguns. You originally said 'why exclude anything that we currently accept' and then you say nothing that exceeds the performance of a shotgun or MZ. So either you think some of the rounds already legal should be taken out of the rule book or you think most any HPR should be allowed. I dont really care one way or the other .... just curious.
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Post by indianahick on Apr 12, 2007 14:38:36 GMT -5
Nope you miss read it. I am totally against HPR's, even in contenders.
Would have sworn you posted on your second or third post that brown and downers should not be allowed to hunt.
My wife also dislikes the smell of black powder being cleaned. She still does. I still shoot it. I clean it in what was my sons weight shed with a heater both of us are happy.
Thank for bringing up performance capabilities. Age lowers performance capability. Age does not fall under the heading of handicap.
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Post by swilk on Apr 12, 2007 14:41:34 GMT -5
Indianahick:
I was posting to mbogo when I asked the hpr thing. Sorry for the confusion.
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Post by swilk on Apr 12, 2007 14:48:06 GMT -5
Indianahick:
I see you went and read through some of my previous posts .... yes, i did reference in a previous post that i think there are too many "brown and downers". never said I hated them only that I didnt see any way to change that fact.
If you read farther I have retorted in many of my posts that I would never criticize anyone for shooting anything they wanted to shoot. I am happy for them ....
But what do you say to a guy who shoots a 6 pointer opening day of gun season (you pat him on the back and say way to go when he shows you) and then that same guy complains about never killing a "big" buck when you come back in mid december with a nice buck?
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Post by Old Ironsights on Apr 12, 2007 15:00:43 GMT -5
Does anyone have any reasons not to allow them? We already allow weapons that have the same ballistic values as most any HPR ...... Reasons other than just because you dont want them? There are currently, IIRC, 3 brands of "High Preformance Muzzleloader" that can generate, at the very top end of their loading potential, ballistics on par with some HPRs... ONCE per shot opportunity. They are not commonly used, to achieve that performance it requires maximum load potential, and 2 of the 3 brands i can think of are outrageously expensive. As such, Smokeless/HPMLs are hardly equivelent to HPRs. An HPR has both a Point Blank and Termininal Range in excess of what has been deemed prudent by the DNR for times when hunter density is high. There may be certain areas in the State where that prudence may be questioned, but in the majority of the flat-cropland it is unquestionable. Simply, it is a bad thing when people miss, especially more than once, with HPRs on flat terrain, especially when in-field human densities are high. HPRs have a place in depredation, when field densities are low, but not during the general season.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 12, 2007 15:04:39 GMT -5
But what do you say to a guy who shoots a 6 pointer opening day of gun season (you pat him on the back and say way to go when he shows you) and then that same guy complains about never killing a "big" buck when you come back in mid december with a nice buck? I would do my best to educate him to the fact that if he was shooting the first legal buck to come along then his chances fo ever getting a big one was lessened severely. Stuill his choice. The odds on the first buck we see every time out being a wallhanger are slim and none and slim left town last week.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2007 15:05:12 GMT -5
Ky. took the training wheels off long ago, so far there's been no drop in safety proformance. Basicly, if you shoot a rifle, any centerfire is legal. The F & G Dept. leaves the caliber selection up to the hunter to make an wise and ethical choice. 99.9% of them do apparently. There's really no difference in a .458 Win. or a .17 Rem. when it comes to safe use or misuse. Both can do either or none.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 12, 2007 15:09:56 GMT -5
Not speaking for Mbogo, but I think the discussion was about "rifles" and not handguns.
The HP hand guns are legal and to this day has not presented any problems.
Why? Because the number of hunters using them are small and mostly very dedicated. That is probally the last guy in the woods that would shoot at something he thought was a deer.
I cant see banning the HP handguns, but I also don't think that opens the door for HPR either.
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Post by swilk on Apr 12, 2007 15:10:33 GMT -5
Does anyone have any reasons not to allow them? We already allow weapons that have the same ballistic values as most any HPR ...... Reasons other than just because you dont want them? There are currently, IIRC, 3 brands of "High Preformance Muzzleloader" that can generate, at the very top end of their loading potential, ballistics on par with some HPRs... ONCE per shot opportunity. They are not commonly used, to achieve that performance it requires maximum load potential, and 2 of the 3 brands i can think of are outrageously expensive. As such, Smokeless/HPMLs are hardly equivelent to HPRs. An HPR has both a Point Blank and Termininal Range in excess of what has been deemed prudent by the DNR for times when hunter density is high. There may be certain areas in the State where that prudence may be questioned, but in the majority of the flat-cropland it is unquestionable. Simply, it is a bad thing when people miss, especially more than once, with HPRs on flat terrain, especially when in-field human densities are high. HPRs have a place in depredation, when field densities are low, but not during the general season. Badbull and Savage are the two commercially available smokeless MZ's I am aware of. Ok, discount them ..... but what about the Encore, Striker and XP100 currently allowed?
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Post by swilk on Apr 12, 2007 15:13:40 GMT -5
Woody:
I am just asking for clarification.
He said the following:
The Encore and other HPR pistols are currently accepted. However, they do exceed both MZ and shotgun performance.
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Post by swilk on Apr 12, 2007 15:15:30 GMT -5
I cant see banning the handguns either .... and I dont think they open the door for HPR's.
I like things just the way they are.
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