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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 5, 2017 15:48:02 GMT -5
I think there was one year where the DNR screwed up the regulation wording and we could kill one with a bow, one in firearm season and one in MZ season. That was corrected the next year. Most of the years prior to the OBR it was one with archery equipment and one with a firearm OR MZ. Jim Mitchell (DNR Deer Biologist) said at the time of the beginning of the OBR trial that the age shift to older and bigger bucks had already begun. He claimed that was due to an aging deer hunter that has become more selective. At that time he also stated that there were about 6,000 "double dippers". Will we ever go back to a TBR? I doubt it. The pro-OBR comes up with the survey stating a 70+% acceptance of the OBR. Never mind that it has a 30+% bias from hunters that only hunt one season - firearms. Those hunters are no affected by an OBR and they have a lot to gain from it.. Want to ease up on the doe harvest? Go back to a TBR.. one with archery equipment and one with a firearm OR MZ. . Going back to TBR with our current seasons and crossbows and hpr's, really? You honestly can't be serious. Yes, hunters would ease up on the antlerless, but within a few years we would be right back to the 90's with roaming herds of antlerless and 1.5 year old bucks being the majority of the buck harvest. No thank you. Now, if the firearms seasons were shortened and moved later, two bucks could be done again without completely destroying the quality of hunting. SMH Not really.. since there were only about 6,000 double dippers it would not be a major impact. IF, the goal is to ease up on the does to "rebuild the herd" then a few thousand more bucks isn't that big a deal. You are aware that Illinois is a two buck state and both of them can be killed with a firearm? Yes, they have a shorter firearm season but TWO with a firearm?
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Post by jackryan on Jan 5, 2017 15:52:44 GMT -5
I'll refer y'all back to the yearly buck harvest numbers....You show me where bucks were saved I could give several examples of bucks I passed through the years because I had already tagged my buck in archery season and wasn't allowed a 2nd buck. 2 come to mind that I ended up harvesting one the following year and the other 2 years later. Verifiable with trail cam pic's and video. Others that come to mind were 3.5 year olds maybe on border of shooters to me, that I let pass knowing I would be done buck hunting for year if I shot. So passed waiting on a more mature buck. Some of those years I ended up with no bucks. In the examples the BUCK, sometimes multiple BUCKS lived to pass their genes onto herd for another season or possibly many seasons . Yes some of those BUCKS were probably harvested by another hunter in area , but hey that's another benefit of the OBR. Spreading the love with others.. Just because YOU passed one doesn't mean it's saved. lol, believe it or not if it's dumb enough to walk in front of you it might still walk in front of someone else the next day, hour, minute. Probably more likely someone else will see it before they see the one you DIDN'T see.
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Post by throbak on Jan 5, 2017 16:45:13 GMT -5
I firmly believe peer pressure media, and aging hunter is what's saving bucks not obr like Wade I have a barn full of 120 to 140 deer I don't care to shoot another but if a 160 or bigger comes along it's game on. If it were a 2 buck rule I would shoot the first little buck that came along and save a Doe and still hunt the big one not kill another buck just cause I could if I kill a stinky ole buck it's going to be a big ole stinky lol
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Post by ms660 on Jan 5, 2017 16:59:35 GMT -5
Well I know that several BUCKS lives were saved on my farm because of OBR over the years. Can't speak for others properties but this I am 100% certain. Was it because a bowhunter chose not to kill them? With our deer regulations we have that can only be the reason,,,,isn't it?
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Post by wesb81219 on Jan 5, 2017 17:12:18 GMT -5
Going back to TBR with our current seasons and crossbows and hpr's, really? You honestly can't be serious. Yes, hunters would ease up on the antlerless, but within a few years we would be right back to the 90's with roaming herds of antlerless and 1.5 year old bucks being the majority of the buck harvest. No thank you. Now, if the firearms seasons were shortened and moved later, two bucks could be done again without completely destroying the quality of hunting. SMH Not really.. since there were only about 6,000 double dippers it would not be a major impact. IF, the goal is to ease up on the does to "rebuild the herd" then a few thousand more bucks isn't that big a deal. You are aware that Illinois is a two buck state and both of them can be killed with a firearm? Yes, they have a shorter firearm season but TWO with a firearm? The key to easing up on the doe's is definitely not allowing more bucks, it's allowing less doe's . Or being smart and taking less than allowed.
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Post by boonechaser on Jan 5, 2017 17:20:00 GMT -5
I could give several examples of bucks I passed through the years because I had already tagged my buck in archery season and wasn't allowed a 2nd buck. 2 come to mind that I ended up harvesting one the following year and the other 2 years later. Verifiable with trail cam pic's and video. Others that come to mind were 3.5 year olds maybe on border of shooters to me, that I let pass knowing I would be done buck hunting for year if I shot. So passed waiting on a more mature buck. Some of those years I ended up with no bucks. In the examples the BUCK, sometimes multiple BUCKS lived to pass their genes onto herd for another season or possibly many seasons . Yes some of those BUCKS were probably harvested by another hunter in area , but hey that's another benefit of the OBR. Spreading the love with others.. Just because YOU passed one doesn't mean it's saved. lol, believe it or not if it's dumb enough to walk in front of you it might still walk in front of someone else the next day, hour, minute. Probably more likely someone else will see it before they see the one you DIDN'T see.
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Post by boonechaser on Jan 5, 2017 17:23:27 GMT -5
Obviously you didn't read my post as i addressed deer that could/might be harvested by a neighboring hunter and I'm perfectly OK with that. With the invention of trail cams I am now allowed to know which deer survived. Surprisingly more do than I would have thought.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 5, 2017 17:48:40 GMT -5
IIRC - the bowhunter drop in take of bucks the first year of the OBR trial was significant. The jump in bucks taken by the firearm hunters more than made up for the archery downturn.
IOW - the bowhunters were passing bucks that more than likely were killed in firearm season.
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Post by boonechaser on Jan 5, 2017 17:55:30 GMT -5
I knew this article would get some stirred up....😁
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 18:57:40 GMT -5
I like this article, it tells a lot. The bottom line is most states are lowering the deer herd or letting mother nature take care of it for three reasons:
Over browsing of mother nature, automobile accidents/deaths, and crop damage. They will keep it as high as possible for the money and only for the money. If you want a larger deer herd then give every state cost effective solutions to reduce browsing, deer accidents and crop damage.
Give solutions and stop complaining/whining!
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Post by onebentarrow on Jan 5, 2017 19:41:32 GMT -5
What OBR has done is to cause a lot of hunters to be more selective in taking their only buck of the season which allows some of the younger bucks to become older bucks.You won't have big bucks if you keep killing the little bucks. Wade It is not about horn size it is about meat in the freezer. A buck is bigger than a doe. Two bucks is more meat. And I do not HAVE to kill a doe to make up for what has been taken away Appear like the laws were passed for the FEW and not the meny. Just my opinion. And if up to me I would change it back in a hart beat!!
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Post by boonechaser on Jan 5, 2017 23:15:29 GMT -5
Awe , see you are all right. But you are all wrong. Hunting is hunting. Not same for everyone. One group is not more right than other.. Meat, horns, whatever.
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Post by onebentarrow on Jan 6, 2017 2:43:58 GMT -5
Awe , see you are all right. But you are all wrong. Hunting is hunting. Not same for everyone. One group is not more right than other.. Meat, horns, whatever. You are correct. Hunting is different for each person. I DO NOT have a problem with someone passing small bucks because they like the challenge of Takeing a large buck but do not penalize me. If you like the chalenge, let me take two bucks so there are "less" BIG bucks for you to take. That would be the a challenge. The DNR should set the harvest at what the herd can take and still be healthey, NOT what on what some one wants. If the DNR came out and stated that takeing two bucks was detrimental to the herd I would back them 100% but that has not happened. Even if they said takeing 1 buck was detrimental I would still back them 100%. The attitude that (I want bigger so you can not shoot two) to me is kind of like an anti hunting attitude, in that they do not want you to have one and you do not want me to have two Onebentarrow
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Post by 1shotwade on Jan 6, 2017 3:21:11 GMT -5
The state doesn't think taking 2 bucks is detrimental to the herd per say,it's just counter-productive to the goals set to maintain a healthy herd.The way I understand it is that they strive to maintain a population that is balanced as closely as possible to a one to one ratio.This is why you see so many counties where you can take an extra 8 deer per year. They are out of balance in that ratio.
People don't realize how fast the deer population can get out of control. A healthy doe will have twins in the spring and if they are both does and survive(which most do) until fall they come in estrus at that time.Once they reach a weight of between 60 and 70 pounds you have just added two more fawn making machines to the herd.usually a young doe will one have one fawn the first year but if healthy starting in the second year they will have twins also.
I have no Idea what the mortality rate is but as you can see starting with one breeding doe in less that a year you can have 3 breeding does so by letting her walk you have potentially increased the doe population by at least 300% and possibly up to as much as 900%.This is why we are allowed to take extra does. No one is trying to "limit" how many deer you can put on the table. If you need 11 deer to make it thru the year it is possible to do that within the confines of the county quotas but to allow more bucks to be taken will only lengthen to time period to bring the herd into balance. Wade
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Post by onebentarrow on Jan 6, 2017 5:39:44 GMT -5
I definitely understand how a herd can get out of hand in just a few years. I do understand that IF I have the places to hunt I can take numerous deer, but as soon as I do I am going to be chastised for killing all the does because some one is not seeing any or not seeing as meny as they think they should. I would rather take two bucks and not have to put up with all the ( put your Exceptable word here) that every body gives out because " I killed all the does" I don't have extra places to hunt and do not like killing to me does off of the place I hunt because deer are some what scarce in the aera I hunt.
Onebentarrow
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Post by 1shotwade on Jan 6, 2017 7:39:33 GMT -5
I don't know who would give you a hard time about killing does! If you killed all the deer within a square mile by next season they would have replenished that area.If people on here are giving you a hard time about killing does then we both are on the wrong dite>If it's your friends you need to find better friends and if it's family tell them to buy your steak so you don't have to kill does.
I agree it is getting harder to find a place to hunt but you need to do the leg work to find other places.There are public hunting areas around the state that are productive for the people that have gotten out there and learned the terrain and deer habits.That's what you will have to do also. There are no shortcuts.Make friends with country folks in your area.Get out and ask permission.See somebody that needs help,well help them.Being the right kind of person will open more doors that all the dollars will.If you are a good guy then be around these folks so they can see that you are.But if you insist on killing more than one buck expect to be caught some day and forfeit any and all equipment used in that act which includes your vehicle if caught transporting an illegal kill!That's just the way it is.Ask Bobby Knight how it works. Wade
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Post by trapperdave on Jan 6, 2017 9:46:05 GMT -5
The state doesn't think taking 2 bucks is detrimental to the herd per say,it's just counter-productive to the goals set to maintain a healthy herd.The way I understand it is that they strive to maintain a population that is balanced as closely as possible to a one to one ratio.This is why you see so many counties where you can take an extra 8 deer per year. They are out of balance in that ratio. People don't realize how fast the deer population can get out of control. A healthy doe will have twins in the spring and if they are both does and survive(which most do) until fall they come in estrus at that time.Once they reach a weight of between 60 and 70 pounds you have just added two more fawn making machines to the herd.usually a young doe will one have one fawn the first year but if healthy starting in the second year they will have twins also. I have no Idea what the mortality rate is but as you can see starting with one breeding doe in less that a year you can have 3 breeding does so by letting her walk you have potentially increased the doe population by at least 300% and possibly up to as much as 900%.This is why we are allowed to take extra does. No one is trying to "limit" how many deer you can put on the table. If you need 11 deer to make it thru the year it is possible to do that within the confines of the county quotas but to allow more bucks to be taken will only lengthen to time period to bring the herd into balance. Wade You do realize fawns are born at about a 50/50 ratio of male/ female, right? You make it sound like only females are born
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Post by onebentarrow on Jan 6, 2017 9:50:31 GMT -5
I DO NOT KILL any thing illegal period !! Never said I do or did. As far as the finding a place to hunt. I have knocked on doors meny meny times. Up here it is almost impossible to find a place to hunt even if you volenter work. With leaseing,family hunting, friends hunting, or just no hunting Pickens are slim. As far as public ground the one nearest me is on a draw for deer. I-E if you do not get drawn tough luck no hunting. As far as one of the state forests it is really not posible to drive 4 hrs to hunt and really not able to do any good scouting with that kind of time and miles. Years back I had almost 800 acres to hunt, but with some being sold some leased and some family starting to hunt it all went away. I only have 20 acres of woods available in an aera not noted for any deer yet alone big bucks. ( to be continued, lunch break over)
Onebentarrow
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Post by 1shotwade on Jan 6, 2017 10:16:33 GMT -5
Dave I was only trying to point out the outside extreme.Unlikely,yes,impossible,no,it could happen. The whole point being the state has been allowing hunters to try and balance the herd by doe reduction.We should not expect them to pass a law that counters that by allowing there to be more bucks taken.
Onebent,I wasn't implying anything.Just trying to give you ideas as to better help your situation.I'd say if you can't go to the deer to hunt you need to bring the deer to you.20 acres isn't much but managed right(if you have the opportunity to do that)can hold deer just like any place else.It's hard to find deer after the first day of gun season. They stay where they think it's safe or the go nocturnal.I know of a little patch of woods that's no more than an acre and one year during gun season I saw 5 deer in it in the daylight and I saw them on 7 different occasions.It might sound like they are cheating but they aren't.They read the rule book. They know what they need to do to survive the season when the first shots are fired.
So there is no confusion,I am only trying to give you ideas that may help your hunting situation.That's what is good about these forums. People helping people. Wade
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 6, 2017 10:29:12 GMT -5
Dunno for sure but I dont think the DNR manages deer to try and get a one to one buck to doe ratio.
The number of does that can be killed is for one thing only - reducing the herd or stopping the growth of the herd.
All in
IMHO....
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