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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 15, 2010 20:33:30 GMT -5
Another question. If the idea is to kill more antlerless deer, why only the 4+ counties for the special seasons? For that matter, why doe only? With the current county limit and OBR, the proposed restrictions don't make complete sense. I think we may have been confused about the goal. According to another site the goal is to reduce the antlered harvest. The way the IDNR will measure success is if the harvest is 60% antlerless and 40%antlered. No plan to reduce the herd just save bucks. There is NO 25% reduction goal as was stated in a newspaper column some time back.
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Post by js2397 on Jul 15, 2010 22:21:56 GMT -5
Another question. If the idea is to kill more antlerless deer, why only the 4+ counties for the special seasons? For that matter, why doe only? With the current county limit and OBR, the proposed restrictions don't make complete sense. I think we may have been confused about the goal. According to another site the goal is to reduce the antlered harvest. The way the IDNR will measure success is if the harvest is 60% antlerless and 40%antlered. No stated plan to reduce the herd just save bucks would be enough since it would change the harvest ratio. At least that is the way I read it.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 16, 2010 5:52:48 GMT -5
Another question. If the idea is to kill more antlerless deer, why only the 4+ counties for the special seasons? For that matter, why doe only? With the current county limit and OBR, the proposed restrictions don't make complete sense. I think we may have been confused about the goal. According to another site the goal is to reduce the antlered harvest. The way the IDNR will measure success is if the harvest is 60% antlerless and 40%antlered. No stated plan to reduce the herd just save bucks would be enough since it would change the harvest ratio. At least that is the way I read it. If the goal is 60% antlerless and 40% antlered then we are already there. That was the exact percentage last year. BUT - If it is buck and doe then we are at 50% to 50%. Buck fawns make up 10% of the kill. Buck fawn numbers is only going to rise with more "antlerless deer getting targeted. We could be chasing our tails..
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Post by vortex100 on Jul 16, 2010 14:49:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the correction guys!!!! Good thing I only hunt with a bow.
I was just trying to figure out how much the general firearms season was shortened so your info helped.
If it passes it will be interesting if they still do a 5 day no hunting period! If I was a gun hunter I would be buying a muzzle-loader if I had the means.
To end on a good note - 2 1/2 months still opening day of bow season.
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Post by Decatur on Jul 16, 2010 15:11:36 GMT -5
I sent a summary of these proposed changes to everyone on the Sportsman's Lodge mailing list(200+) as well. We have to get the word out!
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Post by hoosier on Jul 16, 2010 15:13:59 GMT -5
We could be chasing our tails..
[/quote]
Naw..........Never! ;D
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Post by jjas on Jul 16, 2010 15:40:57 GMT -5
Woody,
What would be the upside of 60/40?
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Post by js2397 on Jul 16, 2010 16:10:45 GMT -5
Woody, What would be the upside of 60/40? I guess less bucks killed.
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Post by jjas on Jul 16, 2010 16:31:38 GMT -5
Woody, What would be the upside of 60/40? I guess less bucks killed. I get that, but my point is from a biologic standpoint what's the upside to having the kill ratio 60/40 does/bucks. Other than trying to force bucks on their feet during the rut what good comes of it? And what happens if another round of EHD hits and kills a bundle of does? Seems to me that if they are born on a 1/1 ratio and we are killing them @ a 1/1 ratio (which we have been for the last 5 years according to the kill data) AND in record numbers (last year, according to the kill data) that ought to be about right.
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Post by steve46511 on Jul 20, 2010 11:49:35 GMT -5
Lots of confusion going on in my head on this.
First glance I dont like it. Too many of us only have a few days we CAN hunt in the existing seasons as is. I'm unsure if the "split" season will help on that....or not.
It is going to hurt some hunters that are gun hunting bucks only for sure. MOST of the bucks, by number, are shot the first weekend. That fact is pretty well known. How much it limits the gun toting trophy hunter is kind of up in the air to me.
Those big old boys dont get old being stupid and a lot feel that the majority of the big bucks not taken the first few days of season (short or not) are quite close to being purely nocturnal. Lots Ive hunted were like that and "disappeared" after the banging started.
I think the "state" is just following the old "I dont care what you do but DO SOMETHING" philosphy and just attempting SOMETHING in an attempt to harvest more deer. How it works out if they do it, is up in the air but I do know that humans, me included, flat dont like change.....of any kind. Immediately we think "change is bad". Sometimes it is too!
The week at the end of Dec for antlerless gun hunting MIGHT.....repeat MIGHT be a good thing??? Knowing they HAVE that week the purely "meat hunters" might rat tat tat at LESS deer during gun season or might just flat not hunt as much.
I know HERE in N. IN, and only my opinion, but I think we have WAY too many hunters out there. I really do not like seeing 5-8 other "orange hats" from where I'm sitting and before you say it.....I've already "moved" to other areas and I'm RUNNING OUT of a place to go not crowded.
I dont know for sure, of course, but I think the state is missing a couple things I dont think has yet been discussed but I might have missed it (18 pages??!! of replys).
NOT shooting as many bucks at the BEGINNING of the rut by gun hunters gives those bucks another week (probably more since fewer may get shot not hunting the rut) to breed other does. The result, I would think, would increase the fawn production over each and every year.
Before someone adds that no does go unbred, I ask you only to look at the numbers of Does Per Buck ratio, then consider that a buck STAYS with a doe several days, and ask yourself just HOW MANY does a buck CAN breed DURING THE TIME MOST COME IN HEAT. With the MAIN rut short (and the lighter later rut also being short) I just flat dont see how a buck CAN breed more than 2 in a rut...3 at most. We have WAY more than 3 does per buck out there and certainly the numbers of does to bucks out there indicates that NOT all does get bred. More will be if gun hunters are NOT hunting the main rut.
Just IMHO I think the herd population has a potential to GROW FASTER with the purposed shorter gun season just because its LATER and lots the does ARE ALREADY bred when it comes in.
The other thing they might be missing is the reduction such a change will bring in the amount of money hunters spend in gas, meals, etc having only 9 days of season instead of 16.
It's definately different and unexpected IMO but I flat dont have an answer on exactly HOW it will effect the total herd but do for a fact know it's going to HONK OFF most the hunters I know, if it passes.
New here, but not to deer hunting. Been doing so since deer tags were $4.25 each and hunt all I can in whatever season. Just added in case you wonder "who is this I D I O T?" lol
Still in all, I think the state is going on "supposed" information and don't think they have a snowballs chance in KNOWING what the result will be.........and are just GUESSING going on information given to them by whom, Ive no clue.
I do know for a fact that most of us WILL HUNT, maybe biotching and whining, but we will hunt.
I give thanks I CAN still DO THAT! God Bless Steve
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Post by Decatur on Jul 20, 2010 12:17:54 GMT -5
Welcome Steve! Post often!
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Post by steve46511 on Jul 20, 2010 13:15:48 GMT -5
Thank you, kind Sir! Even though my single post indicates otherwise, I don't usually have much to say I feel noteworthy or different from others posting so I TRY to not expound too much on other's opinions that they are entitled to, nor attempt to explain any more than the facts I feel are available.
God Bless
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Post by deerman1 on Jul 20, 2010 16:18:24 GMT -5
Lots of confusion going on in my head on this. First glance I don't like it. Too many of us only have a few days we CAN hunt in the existing seasons as is. I'm unsure if the "split" season will help on that....or not. It is going to hurt some hunters that are gun hunting bucks only for sure. MOST of the bucks, by number, are shot the first weekend. That fact is pretty well known. How much it limits the gun toting trophy hunter is kind of up in the air to me. Those big old boys don't get old being stupid and a lot feel that the majority of the big bucks not taken the first few days of season (short or not) are quite close to being purely nocturnal. Lots Ive hunted were like that and "disappeared" after the banging started. I think the "state" is just following the old "I don't care what you do but DO SOMETHING" philosophy and just attempting SOMETHING in an attempt to harvest more deer. How it works out if they do it, is up in the air but I do know that humans, me included, flat don't like change.....of any kind. Immediately we think "change is bad". Sometimes it is too! The week at the end of Dec for antler less gun hunting MIGHT.....repeat MIGHT be a good thing??? Knowing they HAVE that week the purely "meat hunters" might rat tat tat at LESS deer during gun season or might just flat not hunt as much. I know HERE in N. IN, and only my opinion, but I think we have WAY too many hunters out there. I really do not like seeing 5-8 other "orange hats" from where I'm sitting and before you say it.....I've already "moved" to other areas and I'm RUNNING OUT of a place to go not crowded. I don't know for sure, of course, but I think the state is missing a couple things I don't think has yet been discussed but I might have missed it (18 pages??!! of replays). NOT shooting as many bucks at the BEGINNING of the rut by gun hunters gives those bucks another week (probably more since fewer may get shot not hunting the rut) to breed other does. The result, I would think, would increase the fawn production over each and every year. Before someone adds that no does go unbred, I ask you only to look at the numbers of Does Per Buck ratio, then consider that a buck STAYS with a doe several days, and ask yourself just HOW MANY does a buck CAN breed DURING THE TIME MOST COME IN HEAT. With the MAIN rut short (and the lighter later rut also being short) I just flat don't see how a buck CAN breed more than 2 in a rut...3 at most. We have WAY more than 3 does per buck out there and certainly the numbers of does to bucks out there indicates that NOT all does get bred. More will be if gun hunters are NOT hunting the main rut. Just IMHO I think the herd population has a potential to GROW FASTER with the purposed shorter gun season just because its LATER and lots the does ARE ALREADY bred when it comes in. The other thing they might be missing is the reduction such a change will bring in the amount of money hunters spend in gas, meals, etc having only 9 days of season instead of 16. It's definitely different and unexpected IMO but I flat don't have an answer on exactly HOW it will effect the total herd but do for a fact know it's going to HONK OFF most the hunters I know, if it passes. New here, but not to deer hunting. Been doing so since deer tags were $4.25 each and hunt all I can in whatever season. Just added in case you wonder "who is this I D I O T?" lol Still in all, I think the state is going on "supposed" information and don't think they have a snowballs chance in KNOWING what the result will be.........and are just GUESSING going on information given to them by whom, Ive no clue. I do know for a fact that most of us WILL HUNT, maybe biotching and whining, but we will hunt. I give thanks I CAN still DO THAT! God Bless Steve welcome Steve ' But the going Buck to do ratio in Indiana is accepted at 1-3 after hunting season and 1-2 before because you have to count Button bucks as well in the bucks number .Also the average buck breeds between 5 - 9 DOE a year with 7 being the average .So in fact does start breeding in mid to late Oct and continue through Nov teaching what we know as peek of the rut around the 15 or so of Nov then slips away till we reach the first week of Dec. So in fact bucks have [plenty of time to breed several does since they spend approximately 24 to 48 hrs with a hot doe. The things I posted for you are proven in many studies and there are a bunch of misconceptions about deer and their breeding habits .Or buck to Doe ratios are quite good here since fawns are born 50% male and 50% female .Hunters just think that there are not many bucks since they are usually more difficult most of the year to see and hunt. Welcome
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Post by steve46511 on Jul 20, 2010 19:21:40 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply. Ive never even heard anything close to a 1-2 ratio on bucks to does here in IN. News to me I guess. Sure liketo know HOW that happened (if actual) when we've never ever killed more does per buck than what the ratio of the entire herd was that year. Totals antlered 52,980 antlerless 79,772 total 132,752 Not even considering that some of the antlerless WERE bucks (button) were no where's close to killing even TWO does per buck.......which is what you are reporting is the current population split. www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-2009_Deer_Season_Summary.pdfjust my 2cents gang and my beliefs too on what I see and have seen change over 40 years of hunting deer here in our home state. I personally dont know anyone "accepting" that the current buck to doe ratio is anywhere close to 1-2. No offense. God Bless
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2010 19:47:00 GMT -5
If your left with (post hunt) 40 bucks and 110 does at the end of the following Spring, you'll have 150 bucks and 220 does which is then 1.5/2.2....it'll never be worse than 1 to 3
Say the next season you kill 100 bucks and only 50 does, you'll have 220 bucks and 340 does the following spring.
It won't be worse than 1 to 3 with any combination of numbers, in the wild that is.
The only reason that killing 60/40 does to bucks is desired is to stop the growth in overall herd numbers. Hard to compute what the kill would need to be without an accurate estimate of the number of deer in the herd. One other reason is that if you can control the overall number of deer at a ertain number....say 750,000 and you kill more does than bucks then the bucks get more to eat, and get bigger and older.....which is the overall goal of the suggested changes.
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Post by steve46511 on Jul 20, 2010 19:52:02 GMT -5
Sorry. That is assuming two fawns for EACH doe........surviving.
I know of one place where the doe to buck ratio is improving. Its a lease next to a private holding that isnt hunted. They shoot 3 bucks normally, about 3-5 does during season and 25 crop damage annually.
I just called and even though he has LOTS of bucks due to not killing them....he thinks his doe to buck ratio is STILL 5-1 after 6 years of the same thing taken out or close.
If you have anything close to 1 buck per two does.....super duper. Last report I have in my record was 126 deer seen at less than 100 yards in good light.
9 were bucks.
Agree to disagree? lol
I apologize to new readers. I took most my other post out. It's simply not a subject most will agree on, ever and I simply dont wish to get trapped in a non provable number of deer that we have nor the percentages.
What we have, we have. NO offense intended.
Thanks Steve
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Post by deerman1 on Jul 20, 2010 19:56:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply. Ive never even heard anything close to a 1-2 ratio on bucks to does here in IN. News to me I guess. Sure liketo know HOW that happened (if actual) when we've never ever killed more does per buck than what the ratio of the entire herd was that year. Totals antlered 52,980 antlerless 79,772 total 132,752 Not even considering that some of the antlerless WERE bucks (button) were no where's close to killing even TWO does per buck.......which is what you are reporting is the current population split. www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-2009_Deer_Season_Summary.pdfjust my 2cents gang and my beliefs too on what I see and have seen change over 40 years of hunting deer here in our home state. I personally dont know anyone "accepting" that the current buck to doe ratio is anywhere close to 1-2. No offense. God Bless Actually they go farther into the break downs on the deer stats and if you look at all pie charts they list Doe ,Buck and Button buck harvest . We do kill approxamatly 1/3 more does than buck total. and we have for several years.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2010 19:58:33 GMT -5
So....you SEE more does than you do bucks......that is NOT a new phenomenon by any means.
You (or anyone else) can assume anything you want, but the science is true. Deer managers don't reley on hunter sightings for a reason. Any trained deer biologist will confirm that in a wild herd....1 to 5 or worse ratios just don't exsist.....anywhere.
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Post by steve46511 on Jul 20, 2010 20:18:59 GMT -5
Sorry guys but NOT seeing them doesnt prove they are there either.
Im out..........guess Ill just stick with what my eyes tell me about lack of buck sign, lack of bucks seen (9 in three years 5 of them in one day) and how many hours how many deer are sighted per buck compared to years past.
Someone "saying" things improved buck to doe wise isnt proof. Nope, you DONT see as many bucks as there ARE........does either still in all in the same county Ive hunted my whole life the number of does seen went UP dramatacially by comparison.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2010 20:23:44 GMT -5
I thought the OBR was supposed to fix that?
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