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Post by freedomhunter on Mar 4, 2008 17:30:21 GMT -5
No need for coherent reasons or facts. There are models out there that Indiana will fall in behind, just like always. Trophy hunters will throw you under the bus just as quick as vice versa.
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Post by mrfixit on Mar 4, 2008 17:44:31 GMT -5
The best we can hope for is Indiana to fall behind Georgia's model and give us 90+ days of gun season!!
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Post by RoadKill on Mar 4, 2008 19:29:17 GMT -5
Terms like "antler worshipper" and ideas like "hunt bucks from the ground" aren't going to make for intelligent arguments when it counts. I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm guessing you don't think "hunting bucks from the ground" would help limit the number of bucks killed?
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Post by RoadKill on Mar 4, 2008 19:36:31 GMT -5
That's real simple, just make bucks legal by ground hunting only, no elevated hunting positions for bucks. I think that would reduce the number of bucks killed. Or Not. I'd just like to see them shorten the overal firearms season. Well then, you have people who question whether or not enough deer are killed. Thats when I say leave the antlerless season open. I'd be happy to have a shorten season for a few years if that will really benefit the age structure of the bucks in the state. Please read my statement again. I proposed something that I think would reduce the number of bucks killed. Do you think that it wouldn't reduce the number of bucks killed?
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Post by bschwein on Mar 5, 2008 9:09:24 GMT -5
Please read my statement again. I proposed something that I think would reduce the number of bucks killed. Do you think that it wouldn't reduce the number of bucks killed? I would guess it might reduce the numbers by a little. But you start imposing restrictions as how you can hunt then it will be, lets make it single shot only or lets make it pump or single shot, etc, etc. That will never fly. I'm saying shorten the overall length of days you are allowed to harverst horns and keep the antlerless time frame the way it is.
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Post by bschwein on Mar 5, 2008 9:17:10 GMT -5
Those arguing for a shorter season to in turn produce larger bucks or fewer button bucks killed or greater age shift are missing the point... short season = reduced hunter selectivity. That is a fact born out by studies specifically on this issue.... I don't have any data to back this up, but i'm going out on a limb and saying most of the people that only come out for gun season will shoot the first thing that walks by. Whether thats a 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 or 5 1/2. I'm sure if theres data out there, someone will correct me on this if I'm wrong. I also want to clarify that, if someone chooses to shoot the first thing that walks by. I have no problem with that. They pay just like everyone else.
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Post by freedomhunter on Mar 5, 2008 12:16:28 GMT -5
Shortening firearms and moving it later is going to result in more older age class bucks on top of more 2 and 3 year olds that will be there for the firearms hunter whether it is 18 days or 32 days, and they will still be huntable. Especially for the guy that just wants to "get his buck". If this was the case, Indiana could go back to two bucks in a few years, imo.
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Post by firstwd on Mar 5, 2008 13:34:12 GMT -5
I will concede that I will hunt with my gun whenever the season is. But, if Indiana considers moving gun season to "protect Bucks during the rut", then all deer hunting for bucks should be stopped during that time. Actually, as to not encourage an honest hunter from making a mistake, all deer hunting should not be allowed during the breeding season. We should have an all out assault on does from the first of September to about the middle of October. Then we can have a antlered only hunt from about the second week of December to the first of January. By then the State will have the numbers they need to know if enough anterless deer were taken and, if not, we go back after them for a couple weeks in January. By the way, this would require all hunters to share the woods at the same time. There wouldn't be much room in the time frame to separate archery and gun hunters. Of course we could always share the "buck" season and let archers have the early doe season and the gunners have the late one, but somewhere somebody would think that is not quite fair.
Any one can throw out all sorts of ideas of what would make deer hunting in Indiana better, for them. The problem with that lies in the numbers coming form the survey the Sate does. The majority of the deer hunters (deer hunters include the die hards and the weekend warriors) are satisfied with the system that the people who have been charged with handling the situation has developed. Therefore, no matter what we say is the perfect plan, it just does not fit with what the populous says.
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Post by js2397 on Mar 5, 2008 15:21:39 GMT -5
Why does anyone care what somebody else kills?
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 5, 2008 17:00:52 GMT -5
Guys,
Indiana DNR is not here to grow trophy bucks for us.
They are here to maintain a healthy herd in numbers that are acceptable to ALL of their customers.
That would be not only hunters, but the general populace and farmers too.
Frankly, I do need the DNR to attempt to grown me a trophy buck. I'll take them as they come. There has been many a year that I did not kill a buck at all and that is fine with me. I enjoy the hunt, no matter if I do or do not bring one home.
If we could turn back the clock to the late 60s or early 70s (when if you even saw a deer it was something) I would wager half the deer hunters today would flat out quit deer hunting.
IOW - some deer hunters are super spoiled by the shear numbers of deer seen now. Quit worrying about where the next trophy buck will come from and just go out and enjoy the hunt.
These ARE the good old days..
.
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Post by steiny on Mar 5, 2008 20:00:46 GMT -5
Here is the thing Woody. You are pushing your views and your side of the agenda every bit as hard as the guys like me who would like to see some change to season structure, etc. that would be good for improving trophy caliber.
You are pretty dead set in your opinion, and we are pretty dead set with our views. We disagree with the way the DNR (our government) is running things. This is no diffeent than questioning the way our government runs any other aspect of state business. State officials should be questioned and challenged by the public. Just because they have a "wildlife based education" does not make what they say "the last word", nor does it get them off the hook from questioning and having their position challenged, same as you would challenge your congressman, senator, or whoever on policies they hold charge over.
That's just the way it is. Nothing is really wrong with either side of the issue, this is just a good debate, and as you should know when it comes to making change in state policies, the squeaky wheel generally gets the grease.
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Post by RoadKill on Mar 5, 2008 20:01:32 GMT -5
...Indiana DNR is not here to grow trophy bucks for us. .... ....Frankly, I do need the DNR to attempt to grown me a trophy buck. I'll take them as they come..... ...If we could turn back the clock to the late 60s or early 70s (when if you even saw a deer it was something) I would wager half the deer hunters today would flat out quit deer hunting. ..... ...These ARE the good old days.. ... . All very, very true! I believe some of us get a little hypocritical in stating how things should be. We talk about the evils of "high fences" yet we sing praises about virtual fences. The virtual fences being all sorts of technologies and regulations to control (fence) other hunters from intruding on our definition of perfect deer hunting.
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Post by huxbux on Mar 5, 2008 20:05:59 GMT -5
These ARE the good old days.. . I couldn't agree more. I don't think it can get much better than it is right now. I fail to understand how one can enjoy the sport when all they can focus on is size and numbers.
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Post by hornharvester on Mar 5, 2008 23:37:58 GMT -5
Its the sum of watching all those deer porn shows for years. h.h.
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Post by jkd on Mar 6, 2008 2:40:41 GMT -5
Steiny - I've always had respect for you and your posts, so take this as an agree to disagree, and not personal...
Having read many comments on HH.com, here, and a very polarized thread on IS.com (which is now locked), I keep seeing comments about moving the firearms deer season "back" which is back as in later, and I have looked hard for reasons offered to back up this concept... those offers were few and far between, and often used the phrase "better for the herd"...
It would seem that what many mean by "better for the herd" really means "the better to produce trophy bucks to shoot"...
I don't know what others have been seeing the past several years, but IMO, the Indiana deer firearms season is already WELL INTO THE END OF RUT as it is. Where I hunt, the apparent peak was a good week or better before gun season opened.
I've seen several posts on IS.com about "letting the bucks breed undisturbed"... well I've got at least two issues with these comments... first, most breeding is done at night, so not sure who these folks think are disturbing our deer... second, these comments seem to come from those bowhunters who want gun season moved out for their benefit, but I see few offers to shorten bow season or eliminate bow hunting during gun season as some states evidently do... BTW, as you likely already know, I hunt all weapons and all seasons...
I was particularly amazed by one post on IS.com from a hunter who indicated that he or his group had leased considerable ground to protect their bowhunting options, but was upset that this effort was thwarted by gun hunters... Now since he didn't say they were trespassing or hunting his ground, I can only come to the conclusion that he was upset that deer that he had seen on his property and were obviously moving to adjoining parcels were taken by gun hunters, or at least by "other" hunters...
I would hope that all deer hunters would have enough respect for our sport and those in the deer hunting community that we wouldn't begrudge an adjoining landowner for taking a deer that was running across both properties. It never occured to me that when I hear a shot on the next farm, I should go over and cuss out that hunter for shooting "my" deer... Sorry, but my brain just can't wrap around that concept...
So, to echo Woody's comment, IMO it is certainly not Indiana DNR's mission to manage this herd for trophy buck production. Furthermore, I think the negative effects such goals would have on herd structure and population levels, and the associated problems too many does create for other stakeholders, e.g. farmers and anyone driving a vehicle in the state, make such a move counterproductive.
I would hope that any individual or group suggesting such changes to our state government take a long hard look at the ramifications such alterations might lead to in the long run.
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Post by freedomhunter on Mar 6, 2008 6:17:39 GMT -5
I'm not so sure deer hunting tv shows are what is causing some trophy hunters to go out of state. I agree with jkd, most years the breeding is at night and the rut does usually peak before firearms season starts. The older bucks start running out of does and actually cruising more in all daylight hours in firearms season. As opposed to limited, sporadic mid-day movement between doe groups during archery (all that is needed for them to find the next hot doe). Just what I have seen in my areas, sure it is different in other places.
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Post by RoadKill on Mar 6, 2008 9:44:23 GMT -5
Its the sum of watching all those deer porn shows for years. h.h. That's a great way of putting it. Most of the shows are "hunting porn". Thanks.
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 6, 2008 13:15:42 GMT -5
Chad Stewart is the Indiana Deer Biologist...
Other highlights of the '07 season included the success hunters had in harvesting female deer in the latter part of the firearms season and the muzzleloader season, which Chad Stewart said plays an important role in controlling deer populations.
“Antlerless deer are shot at a 2-to-1 margin over the last nine days of the firearms season, and 80 percent of the harvest during the muzzleloader season is antlerless, with the majority of those being does,” Stewart said. “Without those efforts, the deer herds in some areas could rise dramatically.”
End of the story....
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Post by danf on Mar 6, 2008 13:24:22 GMT -5
If people are so concerned about keeping bucks around, they need to be petitioning the DNR to change the license structure. Having an either/or tag for firearms (or a single buck tag good for all seasons at a slightly higher price...) will help the "one-and-done" hunters make an easier decision. Most of them don't care if they shoot a buck or a doe, and many simply buy a firearms tag and take the first buck they see.... Change the license structure first, then get back to me about changing seasons... The way everything else is set up, the license structure makes no sense.
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Post by huxbux on Mar 6, 2008 14:54:49 GMT -5
If people are so concerned about keeping bucks around, they need to be petitioning the DNR to change the license structure. Having an either/or tag for firearms (or a single buck tag good for all seasons at a slightly higher price...) will help the "one-and-done" hunters make an easier decision. Most of them don't care if they shoot a buck or a doe, and many simply buy a firearms tag and take the first buck they see.... Change the license structure first, then get back to me about changing seasons... The way everything else is set up, the license structure makes no sense. I agree. The only thing that needs changing as far as the deer season in Indiana goes, is the license structure.
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