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Post by lugnutz on Feb 26, 2008 19:15:15 GMT -5
Didn't realize their was an early muzzeloader season! Woody i know you don't live to far from me, and weather is inconsistant every year all year long. I also know for a fact that alot of hunters use single shot weapons from the start of the season til' the end of deer season. Todays muzzeloaders are just as accurate and powerful than any "modern" firearm allowed in Indiana. Oh yeah, they are also allowed to be scoped in Indiana. So those that are using today's muzzeloaders ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY do not have a disadvantage over anyone else using a "modern" firearm. And if you swap out modern firearm season with muzzeloader season you will still have about the same results. Don't ya think? I can't be for certain but i'd say that if you look at the last four days of "Modern" firearm season you will see the same trend. And if that is true, then by your theory; is maybe we should reward them, by extending the season for them. Also, i seriously doubt that hunter that takes 1 buck during muzz. season also takes out 4 does.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 26, 2008 19:34:41 GMT -5
[quote author=
In those years the muzzleloader hunters took..
15,696 antlered deer
59,173 antlerless deer
Antlerless deer make up 79% of their deer harvest.
So for every buck they kill they kill 3.8 does.Woody, are the above numbers from muzzleloader season or from muzzleloaders? Only reason I ask is there are alot of muzzleloaders used during firearms. Muzzleloader season only. The deer killed in the regular firearm seaosn are counted as firearm kills. Remembrr we have to buy a "firearm tag" to hunt the firearm season with muzzleloaders.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 26, 2008 19:56:24 GMT -5
What is the same math formula for the regular gun season? # of antlered vs antlerless? percentage antlerless makes up of total harvest ? You have to realize that there are probably ten to one firearm hunters to muzzleloaders. The muzzleloaders hunting the firearm season are lumped in with the firearm kill too. So naturally the number killed will be much grrater. However, to get a level look at this one must look at the antlered to antlerless kill percentage. In that same time period the firearm hunters took: 193,386 antlered deer
201,889 antlerless deer
Antlerless deer make up 51% of their deer harvest.
Pretty well a push on buck to doe killing.Only in the last two years has the antlerless kill been more than 50%.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 26, 2008 20:01:26 GMT -5
Don't really understand the point of this thread, other than another angle at arguing against any reduction in firearms hunting. Actually it is in answer to those who try to garner support for shortening the firearm season by lumping in the muzzleloader season. It should be a stand alone hunting tool and season. . It doesn't seem to affect Kentucky when they have their early muzzleloader weekend and their youth early firearm weekend.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 26, 2008 20:15:55 GMT -5
Didn't realize their was an early muzzeloader season! You've got me there. The muzzleloader season is "late" though, isn't it? The later in the year the better chance for nasty weather, agree? Of course you and I live in balmy southern Indiana, but what about our northern brethern? Single shot cartridge guns are much faster to get off a second shot than a muzzleloader, agree? Single shot...reloading for a second shot if needed. Is that not a disadvantage over a firearm that can shoot 5 shots in rapid succession? I kind of doubt it. . One has to look at the totality of the seasons and not just pick a few days at the end. I'm sure if we looked at the last 4 days of of muzzleloader season that antlerless percentage would sky rocket. I would favor extending the firerrm season though. . They averaged that many. Figures dont lie.
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Post by lugnutz on Feb 26, 2008 21:25:14 GMT -5
Now Woody, most people on this website aren't first time hunters, and I KNOW your not. In your own experience, how many shots were kill shots after the first shot was taken? The percentages are extremely low, i'm sure. Advantage? Not much if any.
Do you honestly believe that if Muzzeloader season was the first two weeks in November that you woundn't have the same buck to doe kill ratio's as we currently have? And if Modern Firearm season was after Muzzy season that their wouldn't be a 1 buck to 4 doe ratio? I'd really like to know your reasoning behind your beliefs.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 26, 2008 21:50:26 GMT -5
Now Woody, most people on this website aren't first time hunters, and I KNOW your not. In your own experience, how many shots were kill shots after the first shot was taken? The percentages are extremely low, i'm sure. If am shooting a gun that as more than one shot in it I will most times shoot a second "anchor shot". I've lost a couple good bucks that I thought was down for the count on the first shot. Statewide - I'm sure that a good number of deer are killed after the first shot is fired. Ones that would have got away with a muzzleloader. How about "doubling up"? Not too easy to do with a muzzleloader is it? First it was no advantage and now it is "Not much if any". No. This is YOUR hypotheses. You tell us how the results would be the same. BTW - I ran the numbers on the last 4 days of firearm season and the doe take was 72% versus the whole muzzleloader season of 79%.
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Post by woodmaster on Feb 26, 2008 22:41:16 GMT -5
In those years the muzzleloader hunters took.. 15,696 antlered deer 59,173 antlerless deer The 15,696 buck doesn't bother me. Why does it matter what you kill your one buck with? 59,173 Antlerless? ?.......how many where button bucks?!?! That's what bothers me.
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Post by lugnutz on Feb 26, 2008 22:55:17 GMT -5
In Modern Firearm season their are an abundant amount of shots fired, some believing that they are taking an "anchor shot" with a shotgun The more shots taken= more skidish deer. For the most part, people that hunt with a muzzy are more accurate cause of the one shot they have, no need for "anchor shot". I've not needed a second shot at a deer with any firearm since i've matured as a deer hunter. Also if your not aware, Bucks show themselves during daylight hours more so in the rut than anytime of the year, makeing the taking of bucks generally easier than during the normal muzzy season. Thats not a Hypothesis, thats a fact! Also during "modern firearm" season you have a buck tag only, and unless Joe Consumer buys additional tags, he will have to shoot a buck with at least one anter with 3 inches. On the other hand during "muzzy season" one tag gets you either sex. You know the more i think about it, it would be alot better having muzzy only season during the 2nd and 3rd week in Nov. Let the "orange army" have whats left over. Since "modern firearms" have such an advantage over muzzeloaders, let them hunt went its less than perfect conditions. You'd have to be ignorant of what todays muzzeloaders can do, to not think its a firearm. Hell might as well have a seperate season for pcr's since they are a rifle, i seriously doubt any lever action is considered a "modern firearm". At least a muzzeloader has evolved.
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Post by Woody Williams on Feb 27, 2008 6:27:56 GMT -5
And some are taking anchor shots. Some are taking shots after their first shot missed. BOOM, BOOM is a lot more advantageous than BOOM.
Irrelevant to the discussion.
I can only hope that I reach your level of hunter maturity some day.
Gee, I was not aware of that. Bucks moving during the rut? What will they think of next?
Regardless of what is making bucks move the firearm hunter during the firearm season in killing more bucks percentage wise than the muzzleloaders during their season. The folks that want to lump them all together to make their case for shortening the season (which is what this thread is all about) do so because of buck killing. What I am attempting to point out is the muzzleloader hunters are not killing a bunch of bucks - no matter what the reason.
Buck tags or either sex tags makes no difference in the discussion of lumping the muzzleloader season in with the firearm season.
Go for it. I don't think it will fly though.
.
I never said it was not a firearm, although the BATF says it is not. I just said it should be a stand-alone hunting tool.
I said that the folks that want a shorter season should leave the muzzleloaders out of it. They are not killing the bucks in near as great a percentage as the firearm hunters in firearm season.
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Post by RiverJim on Feb 27, 2008 6:44:52 GMT -5
Don't really understand the point of this thread, other than another angle at arguing against any reduction in firearms hunting. If a muzzle loader shouldn't be lumped in with firearms, where should it? How about we call it achery equipment? Sheesh ! And for the record .... I really don't like the idea of muzzle loaders or any other firearms during the early archery season. I like the solitude and quiet and don't really want any more hunters during that season. ME TOO!
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Post by freedomhunter on Feb 27, 2008 7:04:51 GMT -5
All of us bowhunters love our early season solitude. But why be just "ok" with giving it up for 32 days of season (at which point a lot of guys consider their season over). I don't know about yall, but, it only usually takes me a couple days to kill a deer with a firearm if I even need to pick one up. Plus, my bow is much lighter and easier on my ears.
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Post by turkeyscout on Feb 27, 2008 7:51:17 GMT -5
Don't really understand the point of this thread, other than another angle at arguing against any reduction in firearms hunting. If a muzzle loader shouldn't be lumped in with firearms, where should it? How about we call it achery equipment? Sheesh ! And for the record .... I really don't like the idea of muzzle loaders or any other firearms during the early archery season. I like the solitude and quiet and don't really want any more hunters during that season. ME TOO! i like the deer season the way it is!!!!!!! ....turkey scout
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Post by Ahawkeye on Feb 27, 2008 8:33:47 GMT -5
i like the deer season the way it is!!!!!!! ....turkey scout I'm with these guys I like the bow season as is, let the thunder roll after the first day of gun season but leave bow season alone.
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Post by racktracker on Feb 27, 2008 8:35:28 GMT -5
LOL.... Call me an "immature deer hunter". When I put him on the ground he WILL stay there.
2nd, 3rd and even 4th shots have accounted for many a deer that would have got away with a single shot weapon.
Bowhunters have about 6 weeks, more if you count the UDZ, why can they not share at least a weekend? This "mine" outlook will be the death of us yet.
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Post by danf on Feb 27, 2008 9:32:01 GMT -5
How many times have you had a group of deer (usually does) come in, you shoot one and they scatter 15 yards and then stand there? A repeater gets that two-fer or even a three-fer.... I've had it happen more than once, and the last time was the day after Thanksgiving last season. Would have been a two-fer, but I think my scope got bumped and I missed the first one (and I *don't* miss), but got the second one. Had I wanted, I could have taken a third, and maybe even a fourth shot at the other two deer..... At most, you will only be able to take 2 shots in quick succession with a ML, and even that requires a heavy $1200 double gun....
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Post by hornharvester on Feb 27, 2008 10:23:14 GMT -5
We as hunters need to take the blinders off and look at hunting in general instead of our own agendas. Less and less youth are taking up this sport and that someday will bite us in the azz. As we decline in numbers are we going to have enough strength as a group to defeat anti-hunting legislation in the future? We need to add more opportunity to get hunters into the woods instead of trying to limit hunting to our favorite weapon.
I'm an all season hunter and would like to see crossbows added to early archery season and an early primitive muzzle loader season in Oct. By this I mean cap, ball, conical and black powder, scopes with zero magnification and no modern in-lines.
With the OBR what makes the difference what weapon you take your buck with?
The future of hunting is in our hands and if we don't start creating more opportunity to get more youth involved, the heritage of hunting like we know it today will be history. h.h.
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Post by dbd870 on Feb 27, 2008 10:28:26 GMT -5
We as hunters need to take the blinders off and look at hunting in general instead of our own agendas. Less and less youth are taking up this sport and that someday will bite us in the azz. As we decline in numbers are we going to have enough strength as a group to defeat anti-hunting legislation in the future? We need to add more opportunity to get hunters into the woods instead of trying to limit hunting to our favorite weapon. I'm an all season hunter and would like to see crossbows added to early archery season and an early primitive muzzle loader season in Oct. By this I mean cap, ball, conical and black powder, scopes with zero magnification and no modern in-lines. With the OBR what makes the difference what weapon you take your buck with? The future of hunting is in our hands and if we don't start creating more opportunity to get more youth involved, the heritage of hunting like we know it today will be history. h.h. Bullseye h.h. It's time to worry about what's really important.
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Post by indianahick on Feb 27, 2008 10:56:07 GMT -5
H.H. is correct. Just hunt. Do not worry if there is not a Booner behind every bush or tree, There never will be. Not even if the DNR allows the use of Feeders ala Texas, or high fence. Of the 37 years that I have hunted thus far I have only taken a deer (including does) opening weekend less than 5 or 6 times. Opening weekends of firearms that I have not seen a deer probably number closer to 25 or more, including those that are out of range. As for hunter numbers, if you hunt someplace like Fairbanks where I hunt 90% of the time you can watch the number there drop. Opening day of firearms is high, second day is down, by the next weekend you are seeing it in the 30's or less. When ML comes in you see maybe 30 opening day and then it drops down to less than 10 by the end. Archery hunters must sign in too. Just leave it alone, it is working it is not broken.
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Post by danf on Feb 27, 2008 12:08:23 GMT -5
.....Less and less youth are taking up this sport and that someday will bite us in the azz...... I'm an all season hunter and would like to see crossbows added to early archery season and an early primitive muzzle loader season in Oct. By this I mean cap, ball, conical and black powder, scopes with zero magnification and no modern in-lines. Hit the nail on the head. I'm fine with crossbows being allowed during all of archery, and I suppose I'd be OK with a *primitive* ML season in October as well- i.e.- NO inlines. I know this will sound selfish (hasn't most of this and the other thread been that way?), but I like the solitude of the October season too much to merely limit what is on top and in the barrel...
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