|
Post by gundude on Jan 8, 2008 12:25:52 GMT -5
I understand where you are coming from on this issue, I really do but for me right now I am trying to take care of "home base"............ AND in spite of everything said here, I see no valid or logical reason and dare I say SPORTING reason to have such operations in Indiana!...... It's just not hunting. Not here anyway.
|
|
|
Post by raporter on Jan 8, 2008 12:39:38 GMT -5
Why not cut out the middle man and go straight to the Amish farm and shoot your buck? ? Know something I don't? I think a lot of the play-pen shooters already do. Danf, that is where most of those deer come from. Have to truck them in from somewhere. Shoot they might even kill them for you and just hand you the head. That way you wouldn't even have to get your shoes dirty. OR they could send you a catalog of their "Products" and you could mail them a reply of which one you wanted (They don't have phones) and they could just send you the mounted head. At those prices they sure as heck aren't in it for the meat. OK Woody I'm done.
|
|
|
Post by jkd on Jan 8, 2008 12:41:58 GMT -5
Woody - I guess in a perfect world, it might be possible for a high fence op to do fair chase, but I guess the real world view is summed up in the old saying (pc version)...
"If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his butt so much...."
Even in large acreage settings, if deer populations are high enough that they have to be fed regularly, or are being fed to enhance rack growth, then those deer are going to be acclimated to people to a larger extent than would be the case with wild deer. If those deer are being fed the same time every day, 'a la Bellar, then setting up shooting houses just outside the feeding areas along their travel lanes would pretty much throw fair chase out the window, IMO...
The interesting part of this article to me was Rodney's statement that he starts out with 100 deer at the beginning of the season... now where did these deer come from? If he's raising his own "stock", that's one thing... if he's importing deer, then that becomes an issue relative to CWD... I also think the KY biologist hit it on the head about high fence ops wanting it both ways... their deer are "wild" when they're being "hunted", but they're domesticated when they don't want to follow the hunting regs... as she said, can't have it both ways....
|
|
|
Post by buckup on Jan 8, 2008 12:51:13 GMT -5
These operations are simply supply and demand and if the cost was so that the majority could partake , I'd bet the acceptance level would rise significantly.
If this operation and others like it are put out of business, I would not be convinced that it will be truely in the name of ethics or morality but rather due to the fact that it is a game only the wealthy can afford to play.
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Jan 8, 2008 12:59:28 GMT -5
Woody - I guess in a perfect world, it might be possible for a high fence op to do fair chase, but I guess the real world view is summed up in the old saying (pc version)... "If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his butt so much...." Then there is the other one about aunts... Yep... I agree.. Those were stipulated in MY "fair chase" requirements. I think that most of these "shooting preserves" would carry too many deer for the habitat to support as "hunters" like to see lots of deer when "hunting". I've not seen too many advertise doe cull hunts. Now they may do that, but I haven't seen it. My guess is that Rodney has built his herd up enough that he doesn't have to bring any in. He, nor any other "preserve" owner, can legally "import" any deer from another state. It has to be done all in state now. I agree 100%...either they are or aren't wild/livestock....
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Jan 8, 2008 13:05:26 GMT -5
These operations are simply supply and demand and if the cost was so that the majority could partake , I'd bet the acceptance level would rise significantly. If this operation and others like it are put out of business, I would not be convinced that it will be truely in the name of ethics or morality but rather due to the fact that it is a game only the wealthy can afford to play. I'm retired and on fixed income and certainly not wealthy by any means. I did spent enough hunting Illinois ( license, lease fee, and the biggy - gas money) to go on one of these shooting preserve "hunts. I would much rather spend my money hunting truly wild deer in Indiana or Illinois or Kentucky than pay to hunt one of these "preserves". Even if it meant the chance of shooting a lot lesser deer.
|
|
|
Post by dbd870 on Jan 8, 2008 13:23:47 GMT -5
Agreed; if I didn't feel like it was taken under fair chase (whatever that means) I would be immensely disappointed.
I have decided to pay an outfitter one of these years to take myself and my friend who lets me hunt his family's (now 3) farms in KY every year on an elk hunt and I suppose that has raised the question for me. My inclination was to immediately rule out any kind of high fence operation then I started wondering if I was being fair and could fair chase conditions exist in one? I'm looking for a guide who is familiar with the territory, not a pen to shoot one in.
|
|
|
Post by drs on Jan 8, 2008 14:07:10 GMT -5
Woody, this would be a good investigative topic for "60 Minutes" on CBS.
|
|
|
Post by freedomhunter on Jan 8, 2008 14:33:24 GMT -5
120 acres isn't enough ground to even approach "fair chase". If he is making money hand over fist, why not buy some more adjoining ground. I would guess that is all he can fence in that area because there is usually a county road every 1/2 mile north-south and east-west in Indiana. Those type of operations really don't belong in Indiana, it doesn't set up for it. He needs to take his money and move to Texas.
|
|
|
Post by chicobrownbear on Jan 8, 2008 15:01:23 GMT -5
These operations are simply supply and demand and if the cost was so that the majority could partake , I'd bet the acceptance level would rise significantly. If this operation and others like it are put out of business, I would not be convinced that it will be truely in the name of ethics or morality but rather due to the fact that it is a game only the wealthy can afford to play. I'm retired and on fixed income and certainly not wealthy by any means. I did spent enough hunting Illinois ( license, lease fee, and the biggy - gas money) to go on one of these shooting preserve "hunts. I would much rather spend my money hunting truly wild deer in Indiana or Illinois or Kentucky than pay to hunt one of these "preserves". Even if it meant the chance of shooting a lot lesser deer. My argument as well Woody. I think a lot of people can afford it, it is the ethics that are the true matter. I worked for a company that had a high fence site maintenence contract. The property is a little over 300 acres. It is "hunted" exclusively by the owner (not a "game preserve" operation). The deer inside do not behave like wild deer.
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Jan 8, 2008 15:08:19 GMT -5
The deer inside do not behave like wild deer. That kind of takes the fun out of it, doesn't it?
|
|
|
Post by dbd870 on Jan 8, 2008 15:29:26 GMT -5
Indeed, that would definitely be a problem.
|
|
|
Post by dadfsr on Jan 8, 2008 16:25:19 GMT -5
I've been reading all the comments for the last day or so and have to come to the humble opinion that, at least in IN, these are not "hunting" preserves or operations they are just for killing. When I HUNT my few acres I never know what I will see if anything and there is no guarantee that the animal I saw the day before is going to be there the next day or even at all. I hunt because of the closeness it brings me to my maker, the stillness it brings to my soul and the possibility of providing for my family-somehow that just doesn't even come close to any canned hunt that I can envision.
|
|
|
Post by phatadams on Jan 8, 2008 17:32:12 GMT -5
So how about them colts!!! sure are good ......lol
|
|
|
Post by duff on Jan 8, 2008 18:30:42 GMT -5
I know not many like it when this compairison is brought up but if the deer farms are all about the kill what are the bird farms about. I know some claim they use it for dog training and that is fine.
Every bird farm flier I have read offer full guide service on these hunts, dogs included. The fact a bird can fly away is not legit IMO. These are cage reared birds, thrown in a cage on back of an atv or truck and dropped off in the small field after you pay for them. Those who have hunted a bird farm know the population density is way out of proportion there too, the birds are not wild they don't act wild and more then likely would not survive very long outside of their pen if they escape.
I don't like the idea of caged hunts, and not particularly fond of the bird hunts either. But not sure if banning them will accomplish anything.
|
|
|
Post by jackc99 on Jan 8, 2008 18:45:58 GMT -5
The penned birds have not been shown to spread diseases as devastating as CWD. In Indiana the annual wild pheasnt kill is about 20,000 birds. The annual deer harvest is around 125,000. Not very hard to kill a deer in Indiana but for many the bird farms may be the only place to ever see a pheasant in Indiana. Oh, and the bird farms are legal by statute while the deer farms never were.
If you plan on training a bird dog in Indiana you will most likely be using pen raised birds to do it.
Jack
|
|
|
Post by duff on Jan 8, 2008 19:18:34 GMT -5
I'd agree with all that, I was just taking some of the ideas as that have been posted up here as to why deer farms should be shut down and compairing them to the bird farms. Bottom line is, it is about the kill in both with the potential dog training as an exception. Neither one represent true wild life situations.
I have no comment on the potential for diseases, I am fairly ignorant to that.
|
|
|
Post by cambygsp on Jan 9, 2008 6:11:23 GMT -5
While you say the Deer Killing Pens were never legal, I would say they were never illegal either. Our leaders at the IDNR at the time knew when one of these opperations started up, they did in fact send letters to these businessmen telling them what they were doing was OK with the state at the time......but there was also a time when a landowner was OK doing an open burn of their trash, there was a time when smoking inside a restaurant or the airport was legal, laws do in fact change with time.
I have no problem with the state making these such businesses illegal, I don't use them and never will so it's no sweat off my brow.
I do however have a problem with hunters aligning themselves with anti-hunting groups, sure you may agree with this one subject but I can assure you, the anti's won't stop with penned killing.
The customer of the killing pen is where the problem is, when there is no demand there will be no killing pen....PERIOD!
We have to make our prosecutors hold the customers of the killing pens responsible for their actions, if they come to Indiana they had better educate themselves on our regulations and laws. If they get caught breaking them they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent....PERIOD!
If your buying alcohol from a bootlegger on Sunday who's breaking the law, you or the bootlegger?
|
|
|
Post by kevin1 on Jan 9, 2008 7:56:26 GMT -5
If they had done that they wouldn't have been able to get the slam dunk conviction on Bellar that they did and he'd still be operating. Like it or not Camby, that's the way the legal system works, you give a few small fish a slap on the fin to get the whale you really want. Slamming the whale makes it that much easier to get the rest of them. When those customers came to this state they were assured by the deer procurers that what they were doing was legal, and they had no reason to believe otherwise since it actually would be in some states. That doesn't exonerate them, but it did set the stage to get them to testify, and that's what drives the nails into the coffin.
|
|
|
Post by greghopper on Jan 9, 2008 9:07:08 GMT -5
While you say the Deer Killing Pens were never legal, I would say they were never illegal either. Our leaders at the IDNR at the time knew when one of these opperations started up, they did in fact send letters to these businessmen telling them what they were doing was OK with the state at the time......but there was also a time when a landowner was OK doing an open burn of their trash, there was a time when smoking inside a restaurant or the airport was legal, laws do in fact change with time. I have no problem with the state making these such businesses illegal, I don't use them and never will so it's no sweat off my brow. I do however have a problem with hunters aligning themselves with anti-hunting groups, sure you may agree with this one subject but I can assure you, the anti's won't stop with penned killing. The customer of the killing pen is where the problem is, when there is no demand there will be no killing pen....PERIOD! We have to make our prosecutors hold the customers of the killing pens responsible for their actions, if they come to Indiana they had better educate themselves on our regulations and laws. If they get caught breaking them they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent....PERIOD! If your buying alcohol from a bootlegger on Sunday who's breaking the law, you or the bootlegger? Two wrongs don't make a RIGHT....never have and never will....
|
|