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Post by dbd870 on Jan 8, 2008 8:29:03 GMT -5
Let's throw the corners out of it and assume you are in the middle of 100,000 acres does that make a difference? I still find the ability to manage the population for better animals than one would find by chance in an area (even with food plots) to really diminish the experience for me. I'm looking to see if I can be persuaded differently.
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Post by drs on Jan 8, 2008 8:46:14 GMT -5
For the sake of the future of ethical hunting as it should be (fair chase) I can only hope that the preserves are shut down. I hope they are shut-down too! Hovever I bet this "Rodney" will most likely have some big money Lawyers on his side, all paid for by "Big Money & Deep Pockets" Hunters, that hunt in his fenced-in yard.
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Post by gundude on Jan 8, 2008 9:01:35 GMT -5
Let's throw the corners out of it and assume you are in the middle of 100,000 acres does that make a difference? I still find the ability to manage the population for better animals than one would find by chance in an area (even with food plots) to really diminish the experience for me. I'm looking to see if I can be persuaded differently. Show me 100,000 fenced acres in Indiana and tell me how many animals per acre there are and then we will talk. Don't forget we have the very real chance of exposing our wild herd to such things as CWD.... Is it worth it?
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Post by dbd870 on Jan 8, 2008 9:25:50 GMT -5
Obviously I would not be talking about IN. I've not been pro high fence, but I have zero exposure to them and I want to be sure of my thinking on this one. I'm thinking more of Texas or some place like that. Population density can be manipulated as well, good point. Although in nature the population density can vary considerably with some places being pretty concentrated and others being more sparse.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 8, 2008 9:44:51 GMT -5
Can "hunting" behind a fence be fair chase?
Yes, I think it can. Fair chase behind a fence would have to depend on several things:
1) Amount of fenced acreage
2) Amount of cover in that acreage
3) The topographical terrain
4) Amount of deer in that are restrained by the fence.
5) Whether deer are acclimated to human presence.
6) Whether deer are acclimated to feed stations where they can be easily picked off.
7) Type of hunting tool (bow or gun) used in conjunction with the other items
8) Number of hunters
9) Driven deer
10) Proximity of the fence to the stand. - NOT sure about this one as I have often hunted on the edge of a barrier such as a lake edge.
Sorry, but I do not buy into the totality of "if it is fenced it is not fair chase".
I've never been to Whitetail Bluff but from the description I do not think it would qualify for MY interpretation of "fair chase".
I once bowhunted elk on a 1,000 acre "pasture" in Colorado. Now this pasture is not the southern Indiana version of a green grass pasture. It was studded with aspens and oak brush so visibility was limited somewhat. It was fenced with three strands of barbed wire. Nothing that an elk or mule deer could not go over or under.
I mention the fence, not as a containment, but to show fair chase. In a full day of bowhunting John Trout Jr. and myself got into elk a few times, but were unsuccessful in getting close enough to arrow any elk. Only twice did we encounter the fence. The last time was on purpose so that we could follow it back to the gate to meet the outfitter. I doubt very seriously if the fence would have made any difference whatsoever in our hunt whether it was a 3 strand barbed wire or an 8 foot woven wire.
10 hours of spot and stalk hunting produced no 30 yard shot opportunities. That was as fair as it gets.
I am not aware of any deer "preserves" in Indiana that have that kind of acreage or cover. Possibly Bellar did have such a place, but he seemingly took a short cut to provide his "hunters" with quick kills and videos.
IMHO - I think I can take 1,000 acres of southern Indiana stripper pit spoil banks and fence it and let a half dozen bowhunters go after them and they would be no more successful than we are with the ground unfenced.
CWD is a whole different subject than fair chase. Like any other disease it can be controlled by proper methods so anti-shooting preserve folks should not hang their hat on that one.
Interesting discussion on this subject as usual, but let's please knock off any personal attacks. If you think that one side or the other is spinning or providing "BS" then rebut it. Do not stoop to name calling.
Keep it above board and the thread stays, OK?
Thanks,
WW
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 8, 2008 9:47:17 GMT -5
................ Population density can be manipulated as well, good point. Although in nature the population density can vary considerably with some places being pretty concentrated and others being more sparse. That is true and don't we all foam at the mouth when the state opens up a new park or area to deer hunt? One that has never been deer hunted in a bunch of years.
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Post by hornharvester on Jan 8, 2008 9:47:49 GMT -5
I could care less what kind of legal operation someone runs on their property. I've never hunted deer on one of these operations and never will but if others want to and evidently they do, I figure thats their business. Realistically I'd rather have a deer farm or high fence hunting operation next to my property then one of these new high volume dairy's or cattle and hog operations. h.h.
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Post by gundude on Jan 8, 2008 9:57:02 GMT -5
I could care less what kind of legal operation someone runs on their property. I've never hunted deer on one of these operations and never will but if others want to and evidently they do, I figure thats their business. Realistically I'd rather have a deer farm or high fence hunting operation next to my property then one of these new high volume dairy's or cattle and hog operations. h.h. I believe you.
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Post by danf on Jan 8, 2008 9:58:11 GMT -5
I agree with your points, Woody, and it's what I was alluding too in an earlier post.
AFAIK, there is no unbroken 1,000+ acre fenced preserve anywhere in IN (IIRC, even Bellar had pens smaller than that, with total acrage over 1k acres...)- though I could be wrong- and even if there was, I've a feeling that population density would be so high as to make it not fair chase, especially the way these fenced hunts have been known to run.
Some of the ranch's in Texas may be as close to a fair chase as you can get behind a fence, however I believe most of them pick-and-choose what deer get shot which modifies the genetic make-up of the fenced herd.
One other factor which I don't believe has been mentioned yet, is the intention of the fence. In Africa, most of the preserves are HUGE and are fenced. From what I understand, the fence is not there to keep the animals in, as much as to keep poachers out.... That shouldn't be an issue in this state though.
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Post by jackc99 on Jan 8, 2008 10:00:38 GMT -5
Can "hunting" behind a fence be fair chase?CWD is a whole different subject than fair chase. Like any other disease it can be controlled by proper methods so anti-shooting preserve folks should not hang their hat on that one. Woody - I think the folks in Wisconsin who have spent more than $30,000,000 trying to eradicate CWD would take a dim view of this statement. And the folks in Illinois where CWD "walked" across the border into Illinois would agree with them. CWD is still a huge issue unless you have a cure that no one knows about. In fact I see CWD as a greater problem than "fair chase" since no one can define "fair chase" for everyone else. Jack
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Post by jackc99 on Jan 8, 2008 10:04:06 GMT -5
One other factor which I don't believe has been mentioned yet, is the intention of the fence. In Africa, most of the preserves are HUGE and are fenced. From what I understand, the fence is not there to keep the animals in, as much as to keep poachers out.... That shouldn't be an issue in this state though. Having been to Africa I can assure you the fence is there to keep the animals in AND to keep the poachers out. Definitely a big problem but no African Game Ranch wants it's stock roaming off the reservation. Jack
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Post by gundude on Jan 8, 2008 10:57:21 GMT -5
Lots of valid points here gentlemen. But lets cut to the chase..... AS FAR AS INDIANA is concenred there are no 100,000 acre pens. DEER density per acre on the confines of 1000 acres are absurd! CWD is a real threat and when it gets here by way of one of these pens we will all be singing the blues! Last and not least, ETHICS do matter.. Now more than ever.
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Post by raporter on Jan 8, 2008 11:19:32 GMT -5
Why not cut out the middle man and go straight to the Amish farm and shoot your buck? He will still look the same on the wall and you can tell whatever story you want to make up.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 8, 2008 11:26:37 GMT -5
Can "hunting" behind a fence be fair chase?CWD is a whole different subject than fair chase. Like any other disease it can be controlled by proper methods so anti-shooting preserve folks should not hang their hat on that one. Woody - I think the folks in Wisconsin who have spent more than $30,000,000 trying to eradicate CWD would take a dim view of this statement. And the folks in Illinois where CWD "walked" across the border into Illinois would agree with them. CWD is still a huge issue unless you have a cure that no one knows about. In fact I see CWD as a greater problem than "fair chase" Jack Jack, I'm being the Devil's advocate here. Is it not true that it is much debatable whether Wisconsin's "kill them all" policy was good policy or not? As we know , no state can kill all the deer in any given area. As long as there is one "Typhoid Mary" doe left the disease is still there. Studies exist that show that the disease can stay in the ground for years after the last CWD deer is removed. Prions are mean motor scooters. No doubt if CWD is going to be controlled it has a much better chance of being controlled behind a fence, correct? Not saying that it ever will be controlled or eliminated, but behind a fence (make that a double fence) the chances of spreading can be lessened if not eliminated. I'm not sure and I would have to go back and look but I think the federal government had some controls set in place to try and get a handle on CWD in "game farms". Maybe you have that information? Does it really need a cure as long as 100% quarantined and not allowed to enter the state via a truck? Of course I do not trust all of the deer farmers to abide 100% by any government rule/regulation/law. There is too much money involved and when that happens, some will bend the rules. I'm just saying that "shooting preserve" opponents should not place their entire bet on the CWD aspect. That is a good sentence. I'm like the Supreme Court justice who was asked to define pornography. He said" I can not define it, but I know it when I see it".
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Post by danf on Jan 8, 2008 11:26:58 GMT -5
Why not cut out the middle man and go straight to the Amish farm and shoot your buck? ? Know something I don't? I think a lot of the play-pen shooters already do.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 8, 2008 11:42:09 GMT -5
I agree with your points, Woody, and it's what I was alluding too in an earlier post. AFAIK, there is no unbroken 1,000+ acre fenced preserve anywhere in IN (IIRC, even Bellar had pens smaller than that, with total acreage over 1k acres...)- though I could be wrong- and even if there was, I've a feeling that population density would be so high as to make it not fair chase, especially the way these fenced hunts have been known to run. I think Bellar had 1,200 acres. The cross fencing would cut that down considerably. Supposedly some of his killing pens were 3 acres or less. The trial video from his place was utterly disgusting. Cut down the cross fencing and if all other criteria that I mentioned was maintained it is possible that Bellar could have run a fair chase "hunt". However, as I see it, a lot of the "shooting preserve" hunters do not want a real hunt, but want a quick kill. So, enters the small killing pens. True. But, do we not "pick-and-choose what deer get shot which modifies the genetic make-up of the wild UNfenced herd" that we now hunt? There is a growing hunter movement that we do not shoot lesser bucks (genetic make-up) and provide cover and food to keep deer on our places and grow bigger racks. Are we not somewhat manipulating the wild herd somewhat to achieve what the"shooting preserves" are also after- bigger racked deer? Certainly not to the degree that the "shooting preserve" owners do, but we are doing it to some extent. I think in Africa and here too that the fence is both to keep animals in and keep trespasser/poachers out. Only in Africa if they catch a poacher they usually just shoot them.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 8, 2008 11:43:08 GMT -5
Why not cut out the middle man and go straight to the Amish farm and shoot your buck? He will still look the same on the wall and you can tell whatever story you want to make up. It sure would be cheaper for them.
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Post by firstwd on Jan 8, 2008 11:43:23 GMT -5
The Amish farms here have had some trouble keeping the deer in their pens. We had two does taken last year in the Eastern part of the county with ear tags. They were taken in an area that is over 20 miles from the nearest "deer farm".
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 8, 2008 11:50:11 GMT -5
Lots of valid points here gentlemen. But lets cut to the chase...... Yes, there is. Let's all try and keep it that way. No, there isn't. What amount of acreage does it take to be "fair chase"? See MY criteria for "fair chase". It may or may not be. Numbers can be controlled. Yes, it can be. Diseases can be controlled though IF the proper controls are put in place AND adhered to. That is why I am saying that "shooting preserve" opponents should not bet it all on the CWD aspect. Ethics are personal. My ethics and your ethics have very little bearing on Joe Blow's ethics.
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Post by dbd870 on Jan 8, 2008 12:08:16 GMT -5
I understand, once again, my questions have nothing to do with Indiana. I'm derailing this thread somewhat (imagine that) as I'm looking at the concept in general.
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