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Post by buckup on Jan 7, 2008 20:38:28 GMT -5
If all these so called "FAIR CHASE", "REAL HUNTERS" manage to put the deer hunting preserves out of business, then I suppose they will want all those "FAIR CHASE" bird hunting preserves shut down as well?
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Post by gundude on Jan 7, 2008 20:53:33 GMT -5
AND SO THE SPIN BEGINS!.........
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Post by buckup on Jan 7, 2008 21:00:49 GMT -5
AND SO THE SPIN BEGINS!......... SPIN......
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Post by danf on Jan 7, 2008 21:08:03 GMT -5
If all these so called "FAIR CHASE", "REAL HUNTERS" manage to put the deer hunting preserves out of business, then I suppose they will want all those "FAIR CHASE" bird hunting preserves shut down as well? Same old song and dance... The birds can fly away if they so choose; there's no overhead enclosure to keep them from doing so. Not to mention the birds will most likely *not* survive a winter if they are not shot, unlike deer in an enclosure- if they get out they will most likely survive until they are killed by someone or something.... High fence pens, however, *do* keep the deer in and from escaping. Gee, some of the tape from Bellar's place (a pen that was put up on a pedestal as a "proper" play-pen, mind you....) shows deer being run into a corner so they can be shot. Just how sporting is that??? And don't even break into the pay lakes either. Unlike pic 'n' shoots, you don't know what you are going to get until you reel it in.... While I see high-fenced shoots (that's right, no where near "hunts") as NOT fair chase, you *might* gain some ground with me on huge King Ranch-sized enclosures. Show me an unbroken span of 20,000 acres here in Indiana (i.e.- no roads) and then we can talk. Until then, it's not hunting...
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Post by buckup on Jan 7, 2008 21:30:39 GMT -5
If all these so called "FAIR CHASE", "REAL HUNTERS" manage to put the deer hunting preserves out of business, then I suppose they will want all those "FAIR CHASE" bird hunting preserves shut down as well? Same old song and dance... The birds can fly away if they so choose; there's no overhead enclosure to keep them from doing so. Not to mention the birds will most likely *not* survive a winter if they are not shot, unlike deer in an enclosure- if they get out they will most likely survive until they are killed by someone or something.... High fence pens, however, *do* keep the deer in and from escaping. Gee, some of the tape from Bellar's place (a pen that was put up on a pedestal as a "proper" play-pen, mind you....) shows deer being run into a corner so they can be shot. Just how sporting is that??? And don't even break into the pay lakes either. Unlike pic 'n' shoots, you don't know what you are going to get until you reel it in.... While I see high-fenced shoots (that's right, no where near "hunts") as NOT fair chase, you *might* gain some ground with me on huge King Ranch-sized enclosures. Show me an unbroken span of 20,000 acres here in Indiana (i.e.- no roads) and then we can talk. Until then, it's not hunting... I just hunted one of these so called "FAIR CHASE" bird preserves the weekend before Christmas, we had a guide with a dog and the whole nine yards. Show me where the "FAIR CHASE" is, in a guide getting down on his knees to dig the birds out of the switch grass and throwing them up and hopeing they fly!
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Post by gundude on Jan 7, 2008 21:32:45 GMT -5
Well said DANF!.....!!!!!!!!!!... glad to see someone using his head and using logic, reason and ETHICS here!.
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Post by danf on Jan 7, 2008 21:36:57 GMT -5
I just hunted one of these so called "FAIR CHASE" bird preserves the weekend before Christmas, we had a guide with a dog and the whole nine yards. Show me where the "FAIR CHASE" is, in a guide getting down on his knees to dig the birds out of the switch grass and throwing them up and hopeing they fly! OK, and how long had that bird been there since it was released? Really not any different than a wild rooster *running* through weeds to get away as opposed to flying. It knew the best way to survive was to stay where it was and not go airborne. Now, assuming the bird did fly, and you missed it, was it going to be restrained in how far it went? Don't think so. My other main beef with the play-pens is deer are already abundant. If someone is willing to pay $2k for a hunt, that $2k goes a LONG way towards buying a chunk of land to hunt on. Birds are a different story; they are harder to come by for various reasons. The bird preserves fill a niche. The play-pens just think they do.
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Post by danf on Jan 7, 2008 21:39:54 GMT -5
FWIW, I really have no desire to hunt birds at a preserve, though I realize it's the best chance to see birds in most places of the state. Not saying I wouldn't do it, but it's not high on my list. I'll go to Iowa before I spend the $$ on an in-state preserve.
I ABSOLUTELY will NOT hunt a play-pen. There's no need for it, like I alluded to above. If I was that hard up for deer, I'd find a "guide" on public land. Or an outfitter with private lands. Yes, they do exist in this state....
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Post by gundude on Jan 7, 2008 21:51:08 GMT -5
Believe it...or not, my Father in-law got me seriously involved in the outdoors. Sure I fished and hunted a bit when I was a kid, but I never had anyone to show me the "right way". He introduced me to conservation, and remembering theres always people that live down stream. Seems to me you forgot what you were taught!...... Hunt on........ If thats what you call it.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 7, 2008 21:58:47 GMT -5
Careful guys.. don't get personal, OK?
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Post by buckup on Jan 7, 2008 21:59:28 GMT -5
The point I'm making, is "FAIR CHASE" those birds weren't under the so called 'FAIR CHASE" rule as some people see it. The subject of "FAIR CHASE" can be argued forever heck, I don't think shooting a deer with a "mash em flat magnum" at 200 yds. is "FAIR CHASE" but I don't look down on those who CHOOSE to hunt that way. It's all about personal choice. Life's to short, if some choose to hunt that way, get over yourself and enjoy your choice and style of hunting.
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Post by buckup on Jan 7, 2008 22:02:05 GMT -5
Believe it...or not, my Father in-law got me seriously involved in the outdoors. Sure I fished and hunted a bit when I was a kid, but I never had anyone to show me the "right way". He introduced me to conservation, and remembering theres always people that live down stream. Seems to me you forgot what you were taught!...... Hunt on........ If thats what you call it. I'm flattered you would take the time!!! ;D
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Post by gundude on Jan 7, 2008 22:17:34 GMT -5
The point I'm making, is "FAIR CHASE" those birds weren't under the so called 'FAIR CHASE" rule as some people see it. The subject of "FAIR CHASE" can be argued forever heck, I don't think shooting a deer with a "mash em flat magnum" at 200 yds. is "FAIR CHASE" but I don't look down on those who CHOOSE to hunt that way. It's all about personal choice. Life's to short, if some choose to hunt that way, get over yourself and enjoy your choice and style of hunting. There is no "style" when killing behind a fence. There is no "HUNTING "involved!.......... But I do thank you Spike ur I mean buckup for making my point..... keep posting, I think you are doing a great job for those on the "inside" of the fence!...lol
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Post by gundude on Jan 7, 2008 22:23:28 GMT -5
P.S. Woody..... No personal attacks here...... I'll stay with facts and remain solid with ethics. If Buckup can convince me that hunting behind a fence is just the same as REAL hunting then hats off to him and Rodney to boot........ Till then, I'm fighting the program but I'll try my best to be civil about it.
Time for my beauty sleep. I know you all think that my good looks come natural but the truth is I work dang hard it!.....
HUNT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by buckup on Jan 7, 2008 23:12:37 GMT -5
Although governments legislate morality all the time, they only legislate what their electors want them to. The ANTI"S know this all too well, and are slowly convincing the electorate that many types of hunting are not ethical, are not fair chase. In other words, they are providing the universal working definition of fair chase that we have been reluctant to provide, and they are forcing governments to place that definition in law. Shouldn't it be hunters that provide that definition?
What is your definition of "fair chase?"
Does it include waiting in a stand to ambush your game? over bait?
Does it include the use of dogs? to hunt birds? to hunt cougar? to hunt bears in B.C.?
What about the use of decoys and calls? Is that fair chase?
If you are reluctant to consider these issues, please remember the ANTI"S are not. With their recent successes in the US and elsewhere, they smell blood and the blood is ours.
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Post by dbd870 on Jan 8, 2008 5:58:39 GMT -5
When I ask this question I'm not thinking of IN, but with some of the really large areas in other states does it become like hunting an unfenced area or since you can control the genetics of the herd so to speak is it still a manipulated experience?
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Post by cambygsp on Jan 8, 2008 7:12:18 GMT -5
Fenced hunting is fenced hunting, my opinion is that it don't matter if it's 20 acre in Indiana or 20,000 acre in Texas, if the property is fenced then IT"S NOT fair chase. If you were hunting is a 20,000 acre enclosure in Texas and you set up in a corner, then you WOULD benefit from the fence. If you set up in the middle of the 20 acre enclosure in Indiana you would benefit from the fence......so whats the difference?
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Post by kevin1 on Jan 8, 2008 7:35:37 GMT -5
I don't see the ambiguity that Blah D'Ney does in this statement, laws change all the time. It wasn't all that long ago that crossbows were illegal, period. Then they becamse legal for those who suffered from a handicap, and finally were legalized for all during a specific period. Preserves as an industry are not the real issue, the perception of that industry by the citizens of a state is, and those citizens may request that their Legislature make whatever they want illegal at any time. Personally, I cannot and never will support canned slaughter at small pic n' shoots such as have proliferated in Indiana, and I eagerly await the day that this cancer is erased.
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Post by gundude on Jan 8, 2008 7:41:20 GMT -5
Although governments legislate morality all the time, they only legislate what their electors want them to. The ANTI"S know this all too well, and are slowly convincing the electorate that many types of hunting are not ethical, are not fair chase. In other words, they are providing the universal working definition of fair chase that we have been reluctant to provide, and they are forcing governments to place that definition in law. Shouldn't it be hunters that provide that definition? What is your definition of "fair chase?" Does it include waiting in a stand to ambush your game? over bait? Does it include the use of dogs? to hunt birds? to hunt cougar? to hunt bears in B.C.? What about the use of decoys and calls? Is that fair chase? If you are reluctant to consider these issues, please remember the ANTI"S are not. With their recent successes in the US and elsewhere, they smell blood and the blood is ours. This message brought to you via page 3 of the deer farmers hand book....... I thought I would also include this due to a special request from my good friend deertracks. For the rest of you out there I include this.......... HUNT ON!!!!
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Post by gundude on Jan 8, 2008 7:48:52 GMT -5
Oh one other thing...... Remember in my earlier post when I said the spin would soon begin.... Well it has come to pass........
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