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Post by hunter480 on Apr 11, 2007 13:57:30 GMT -5
It is crazy for you to be against using high powered rifles over bait piles in Spetember. Just because you dont want it doesnt mean others shouldnt have the choice to do it. (disclaimer: this post does not reflec the thoughts or opinions of swilk. It is given for educational purposes only) Let me trace this down the logical thought sequence-you make the non-sensical comparison of the crossbow to using HPR`s over bait, so you are thereby saying that you find crossbows to be unethical, since we know baiting to be unethical. Explain how and why you find the use of crossbows to be unethical, and not simply something you are against and wish to impose your will on others.
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 14:03:50 GMT -5
why is baiting "unethical"?
Could you please forward me a copy of the "hunting ethics" book that all hunters .... even those from Ky, North Carolina, Georgia and all other states agree on?
You wont let me say no to crossbows because I just dont want them .... so I wont let you say that baiting is unethical just because you dont like it.
Tell a hunter from NC that running deer with dogs is unethical ...... go into his club and tell all the members that what they are doing unethical. I dare ya.
I never said crossbows were unethical. Ethics is a word that is used with much lax these days ..... but not by me.
And you are right ... it was a nonsensical comparison. But only to you and me. In a state that allows HPR's and baiting it wouldnt be nonsense at all. It is their way of hunting.
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Post by js2397 on Apr 11, 2007 14:09:13 GMT -5
Woody: ok. Ill bite. Which would be considered more marginal .... a modern compound which draws 35lbs and flings a 200gr. carbon arrow tipped with a razor sharp broadhead at 240fps. Or a traditional longbow with a 55lb pull at 28" which flings a handmade ceder arrow tipped with a razor sharp ziwiki at a blistering 150fps? Would you argue that some traditional archery gear should be banned? I wouldnt .... in the hands of a competent archer either setup results in a dead deer. Here is the difference we are not saying take away someones opportunity to use their weapon of choice but to expand the available weapons to allow more hunters.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2007 14:10:03 GMT -5
As is a crossbow....why not have separate season for each or have compound users get a handicap permit. Seems if one man can shoot the long bow, everybody could? Your are barking at the base of the wrong tree. I have always said that I like categories ...... crossbows do not fit into my "archery" category. Longbows, recurves and compounds is all there is room for. Many, many people on this site say they are one in the same ..... that is fine. But to me they are not the same .... and I am not likely to be swayed by what anyone here or anywhere else for that matter says about it. If you ask a dyed-in-the-wool traditional archer if compounds should be considered "archery" ...... well, you might not like his answer either. Doesn't make a flip if they are the same or not. Nobody, not God or the DNR, has ever declared OCT. as belonging solely to the traditional bowhunter. They have a rule change process in Ind. and rules get changed from time to time. This rule will also, mark it down.
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 14:17:29 GMT -5
I will not loose any sleep if it does.
I will continue going out on October 1 just like I have every year for the last 20 or so.
I will hunt the same way .... and get frustrated by the same things that I always have.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 14:22:10 GMT -5
Woody: ok. Ill bite. Which would be considered more marginal .... a modern compound which draws 35lbs and flings a 200gr. carbon arrow tipped with a razor sharp broadhead at 240fps. Or a traditional longbow with a 55lb pull at 28" which flings a handmade ceder arrow tipped with a razor sharp ziwiki at a blistering 150fps? Would you argue that some traditional archery gear should be banned? I wouldnt .... in the hands of a competent archer either setup results in a dead deer. A 35# pull can generate 240 fps? Has archery changed that much in 6 years? Now, I've never shot 35# but I don't seem to recall those kinds of speeds, especially with a short draw length that most women and kids would have. I think you are mixing up speed, KE and momentum when comparing the two.
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 14:24:34 GMT -5
dang it, will you let a guy give a good hypothetical comparison without looking at the details?
lol,
I bet some of todays bows will fling a 200gr arrow at pretty close to that speed.
hold on and ill try and find the information ......
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Post by hunter480 on Apr 11, 2007 14:26:03 GMT -5
why is baiting "unethical"? Could you please forward me a copy of the "hunting ethics" book that all hunters .... even those from Ky, North Carolina, Georgia and all other states agree on? You wont let me say no to crossbows because I just dont want them .... so I wont let you say that baiting is unethical just because you dont like it. Tell a hunter from NC that running deer with dogs is unethical ...... go into his club and tell all the members that what they are doing unethical. I dare ya. I never said crossbows were unethical. Ethics is a word that is used with much lax these days ..... but not by me. And you are right ... it was a nonsensical comparison. But only to you and me. In a state that allows HPR's and baiting it wouldnt be nonsense at all. It is their way of hunting. So then your entire post was completely pointless, meaningless, and had no "edcuational"valuie. What was your point exactly?
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 14:27:47 GMT -5
I will not loose any sleep if it does. I will continue going out on October 1 just like I have every year for the last 20 or so. I will hunt the same way .... and get frustrated by the same things that I always have. Bingo!Nothing will change for anyone if crossbows are legalized for the seniors or for everyone. Although some will not admit it. I've seen too many bowhunters on AT complain when they see a big buck taken with a crossbow by saying," Nice buck. Too bad it was taken with a crossbow".
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 14:28:37 GMT -5
Are you serious?
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 14:31:48 GMT -5
Woody:
My software that I use has expired .... cant get any numbers for ya.
But .... my Bowtech shoots a 385gr arrow at about 290 with a 27.5" draw and 63lbs.
I bet 240 out of a 35lb bow with a 200gr arrow isnt completly out of the ballpark.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 14:42:12 GMT -5
why is baiting "unethical"? Could you please forward me a copy of the "hunting ethics" book that all hunters .... even those from Ky, North Carolina, Georgia and all other states agree on? You wont let me say no to crossbows because I just dont want them .... so I wont let you say that baiting is unethical just because you dont like it. Tell a hunter from NC that running deer with dogs is unethical ...... go into his club and tell all the members that what they are doing unethical. I dare ya. I never said crossbows were unethical. Ethics is a word that is used with much lax these days ..... but not by me. And you are right ... it was a nonsensical comparison. But only to you and me. In a state that allows HPR's and baiting it wouldnt be nonsense at all. It is their way of hunting. You are right... ethics are very personal and can change from state to state depending on how one was rasied and taught..
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 14:44:04 GMT -5
Woody: My software that I use has expired .... cant get any numbers for ya. But .... my Bowtech shoots a 385gr arrow at about 290 with a 27.5" draw and 63lbs. I bet 240 out of a 35lb bow with a 200gr arrow isnt completly out of the ballpark. I'd like to see it if you can find it. Who knows I might change my mind on the 35# pull...... but not on crossbows.
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Post by tmarsh83 on Apr 11, 2007 14:51:57 GMT -5
"Ethics" has become this really cool catch phrase that people use in place of "opinions" because they think it makes them sound like some sort of cultural psychologist.
While there are two stances on ethics, as I have said before, one that says ethics vary, and one that says there are cultural imperitives that do not change.
I'm not trying to nit-pick, woody, but please, when you say things like
You are right... ethics are very personal and can change from state to state depending on how one was rasied and taught..
please, preface that with "it is my opinion that"...
ethics don't have to change from person to person, and in many cases they should not. Creating an ethical loophole by saying, "well, thats just the way he was raised" is BS...right and wrong exist. Hold people to a higher standard.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 14:58:50 GMT -5
"Ethics" has become this really cool catch phrase that people use in place of "opinions" because they think it makes them sound like some sort of cultural psychologist. While there are two stances on ethics, as I have said before, one that says ethics vary, and one that says there are cultural imperitives that do not change. I'm not trying to nit-pick, woody, but please, when you say things like You are right... ethics are very personal and can change from state to state depending on how one was rasied and taught.. please, preface that with "it is my opinion that"... ethics don't have to change from person to person, and in many cases they should not. Creating an ethical loophole by saying, "well, thats just the way he was raised" is BS...right and wrong exist. Hold people to a higher standard. Not to nitpick back at you, but if we are going to preface everything on here that is our opinion then we would have to start 99% of the posts that way. You might even have to put IMO in front of But, we are getting way from the subject again.. IMO..
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 15:00:06 GMT -5
I downloaded the free version of ShaftSelector software onto a different system.
It says a Bowtech Equalizer will push a 200gr arrow from a 35lb 26" bow at about 230fps.
Not bad.
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 15:03:19 GMT -5
You will never get people to agree with what is right and what is wrong ..... let alone what is ethical and what isnt.
Ask a devout catholic if using birth control is "right". Then ask an atheist.
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Post by tmarsh83 on Apr 11, 2007 15:20:42 GMT -5
The type of camo i prefer and the ethical impact of various issues are worlds apart. But thanks for at least taking me seriously....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2007 15:23:15 GMT -5
Ask a devout catholic if using birth control is "right". Then ask an atheist. Just ask the Catholic mother with 10 kids if it's right....she might have a realistic POV by then.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 15:30:33 GMT -5
I downloaded the free version of ShaftSelector software onto a different system. It says a Bowtech Equalizer will push a 200gr arrow from a 35lb 26" bow at about 230fps. Not bad. 200 grain arrow including the broadhead? Do the make them that light? What kind of KE and momentum are we talking about?
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