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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 11:30:07 GMT -5
I disagree with that statement BIG TIME! Thats EXACTLY what opportunity is....choices! Comparison to explain what I am talking about. You have a business that has a second floor. All of your employees are able to climb stairs so stairs is all you have available. They have the choice to use the stairs or quit. Now, you hire a person who is confined to a wheelchair. You need to accomodate that person so they have the opportunity to work for your company. You can install a wheelchair ramp, an elevator or a carrier system that rides on the existing stair case. Your company decides to install the carrier system that rides on the existing staircase. This gives the disabled person the opportunity to work for your company by providing a means of access. You tell the able bodied people they are not allowed to use the carrier system, it is reserved only for use by the handicapped. This does not take the opportunity to work for your company away from anyone ...... the able bodied have the choice to use the stairs or work elsewhere. Asking for crossbows for everyone is like asking that an elevator be installed. It would allow choices for the able bodied and opportunity for the handicapped. We already have opportunity for the handicapped in place. lol .... anyone understand that? If that elevator that was installed was of a great benefit to the company and everyone else why not?
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 11:37:43 GMT -5
No reason not to use the elevator if it was there.
No reason for people to not use crossbows if they are made legal for everyone.
No reason for people to not use PCR's if they are made legal.
No reason for people to not use high powered rifles if they are made legal.
No reason for people to not use bait if it is made legal.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 11:39:43 GMT -5
I have never said otherwise. But it isnt because they were denied the opportunity before. They choose to take advantage of a new choice. For some there was no choice before. Not everyone that can't handle a hunting weight is eligible for a crossbow permit. No permit form, that I am aware of, makes allowances for smaller stature people to be able to use a crossbow. That is true, but each and every item that you have listed is considered by the DNRs on whether it will make a nebgative impact on the herd. If it does it is a no go from the git go. In the case of crossbws there is no negativism anywhere - except espoused by some that don't want crossbows out there. Again , a social issue. . Ah, but in this case a "choice" is an opportunity for some. Specifically the ones that we need to recruit and to retain.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 11:40:59 GMT -5
No reason not to use the elevator if it was there. No reason for people to not use crossbows if they are made legal for everyone. No reason for people to not use PCR's if they are made legal. No reason for people to not use high powered rifles if they are made legal. No reason for people to not use bait if it is made legal. Just personal choice is all... In this case I am Pro-Choice..
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 11:45:24 GMT -5
No reason not to use the elevator if it was there. Ah, some health nuts still use the stairs to keep that boyish/girlish figure and a healthy heart. The employees would have a choice then though wouldn't they?
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 11:46:00 GMT -5
aaahhh .... but will you remain that way no matter what the debate?
Lets say baiting is on the table. There is no negative side to baiting ..... other than personal opinion/ethics of some.
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 11:49:36 GMT -5
No reason not to use the elevator if it was there. Ah, some health nuts still use the stairs to keep that boyish/girlish figure and a healthy heart. The employees would have a choice then though wouldn't they? lol, I work on the second floor in a building with no elevator. We had a safe delivered for data tape storage last year. Fire/bomb/nuclear blast proof safe. The door alone weighed over 1000lbs. We told the company that we were on the second floor and had no elevator. They show up with a man and a boy to deliver/install the safe. It was 4 weeks before they returned with a stair climber .... and it made it 2 stairs before burning the motor up. Another 3 weeks before they show up with all the kings horses and all the kings men to carry this monster up the stairs. I hate stairs ...... lol
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Post by indianahick on Apr 11, 2007 11:53:21 GMT -5
Getting a handicapped permit is not as easy as just calling the DNR and saying I want one. Nor is as easy as going to your family Dr and saying my left shoulder will not allow me to draw my bow any longer and I want a permit so that I can APPLY to the state for a handicapped permit to use a cross bow. The young man I hunt with is 58 he has some arthritis in his right hand which will not allow him to close it completely. Yet he can still use a release aid. Ergo no permit. To get a permit you have to pass several qualifications. Go places take tests, spend money to get there, take time off of work to go. Passing a full time crossbow usage will not in anyway impact the I am a traditional archer group. Could it keep more of us 60 plus who are not physically impacted in the woods and hunting? Could Be. Which is better? I vote for more active hunters still enjoying a lifestyle that they embraced many years ago.
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 11:59:55 GMT -5
My father went through the process and hunts with a crossbow.
I am very familiar with what is required and what is not. I filled out all forms and paperwork for him ......
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 12:11:42 GMT -5
aaahhh .... but will you remain that way no matter what the debate? Lets say baiting is on the table. There is no negative side to baiting ..... other than personal opinion/ethics of some. Baiting is over rated, but we can debate quite bit on the "negatives". Disease spread for one.
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Post by cambygsp on Apr 11, 2007 12:18:58 GMT -5
If it wasnt gonna cost that company a penny to install a lift, and there was a possibility that the company could increase profits with no investment, why would the company NOT install the lift....it's not costing anything?
Also, if that company had to pay a person to keep track of who was useing the stairs, and they wouldnt have to do that with a lift, why not have the lift?
Do you have any idea how much money the IDNR spends each year administrating the crossbow permit system?
do you have any idea what it takes to get a crossbow permit?
My Dr charged me 50.00 just to fill out the form, then the state only granted me a tempoary permit! Told me if I hadn't had my problem corrected the next year, re-apply and I would get another temp permit.
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Post by cambygsp on Apr 11, 2007 12:21:10 GMT -5
I am very familiar with what is required and what is not. I filled out all forms and paperwork for him ...... Are you a doctor? The application I got from the state of Indiana REQUIRED the doctor to fill out quite a bit of it, she even had to write a few paragraphs explaining my disability
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Post by dbd870 on Apr 11, 2007 12:21:32 GMT -5
This is you discussion Woody, but I'd suggest to swik to not change the subject.
Woody has given a plausable reason outside personal preference to allow crossbows in October, on the other hand I have never heard any other reason than personal preference from those who oppose it.
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 12:27:17 GMT -5
Thank you for your suggestion. Would you please refresh my memory on what "plausable" reason Woody gave? And just so I am sure .... whos defenition of "plausible" are we going to go by?
plau·si·ble
1. having an appearance of truth or reason; seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance; credible; believable: a plausible excuse; a plausible plot. 2. well-spoken and apparently, but often deceptively, worthy of confidence or trust: a plausible commentator.
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 12:32:39 GMT -5
No, I am not a Doctor. I filled out his applications and paperwork. His physician filled out the parts that are required to be filled out by a licensed healtcare provider. And I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express the night before I sent them in.
The application for the Colorado x-bow permit made the Indiana permit look like a cake walk.
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Post by js2397 on Apr 11, 2007 12:35:22 GMT -5
For deer baiting is no different than hunting over a food source anyway. What is the difference between hunting over a bushell of apples under an apple tree or a bushell of apples under an oak tree? One is legal and one is not.
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Post by dbd870 on Apr 11, 2007 12:37:42 GMT -5
The opportunity to involve more people in the sport; yes I know they can be used after gun season, but that's not the same. I firmly believe we need to do whatever we can, without being ridiculous, to attract people. How many will we gain; impossible to say for certain, even if it is modest - we need more people on our side.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 12:37:53 GMT -5
Thank you for your suggestion. Would you please refresh my memory on what "plausable" reason Woody gave? How about hunter retention as one? This is repeated in state after state - including the state of Indiana.
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Post by swilk on Apr 11, 2007 12:40:32 GMT -5
I must have missed it. Where does it detail the hunter retention that making crossbows legal during archery season made possible?
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 11, 2007 12:40:36 GMT -5
For deer baiting is no different than hunting over a food source anyway. What is the difference between hunting over a bushell of apples under an apple tree or a bushell of apples under an oak tree? One is legal and one is not. You have a point, but let's try and stay with the subject at hand - Crossbows. We can start a "baiting versus food plot " thread and open a new can of worms... Thanks,
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