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Post by SFC (R) B on May 29, 2023 22:04:06 GMT -5
The only reason the waypoint issue wasn't dismissed is that it is a question of fact (if they actually did trespass) and NOT a question of law. Further, the comment made by the judge made it clear that even IF it was found that they simply stepped on a spot of his land the damages nominal (think $1). That portion of the case has zero to do with corner crossing. Best case scenario is a federal decision at appeals (or an elevation to the SC) that holds this decision correct ....as it should have never been a question due to the Inclosures Act uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title43/chapter25&edition=prelim This would deal a huge monetary blow to all the huge, greedy, landowners throughout the west who have been unjustly enriching themselves through alienation of the public from OUR lands.
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Post by duff on May 30, 2023 4:31:47 GMT -5
As I learn about corner crossing I get more shocked by how many believed it to be law that you can't corner cross.
I understand why select folks would want to make it illegal but I can't see how it would be legally justified.
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Post by greghopper on May 30, 2023 5:05:44 GMT -5
As I learn about corner crossing I get more shocked by how many believed it to be law that you can't corner cross. I understand why select folks would want to make it illegal but I can't see how it would be legally justified. I agree…. Seems crazy that corner crossing is all the sudden big news. Personally I believe it’s been going with no problems and most didn’t care….. Big antlers can sure hype up thing it seems.
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Post by SFC (R) B on May 31, 2023 0:31:27 GMT -5
As I learn about corner crossing I get more shocked by how many believed it to be law that you can't corner cross. I understand why select folks would want to make it illegal but I can't see how it would be legally justified. I agree…. Seems crazy that corner crossing is all the sudden big news. Personally I believe it’s been going with no problems and most didn’t care….. Big antlers can sure hype up thing it seems. Out here big landowners are absolute A-hole nazis about restricting or interfering public access all they can. They make huge sums money on outfitting businesses and hunts, especially if restricting public access gives them de facto exclusive access to prime hunting. Here is a good example I have to deal with yearly. I hunt public land that is bordered on 3 sides by large ranches. One of those has a LARGE outfitting business that runs deer and elk hunts adjacent to our hunting area. Elk hunts go for $8,200 and deer for $8,600. That landowner/rancher also has a huge grazing allotment for cattle on the public land. This includes huge amounts of fencing that is SUPPOSED to be down by hunting season and grazing sections that are SUPPOSED to be rotated year by year so as to give forage a chance to recover. Last year we came out to find that NOT ONLY were the cattle still out, they had totally destroyed every square inch of all of the sections....from 12,000' down to the valley floor, and left all of the fences up (which they had been working on apparently until the WEEK before hunting season-which just happens to push the animals down to THEIR land). Oh, and the last 3 years they have moved cattle off of their land through the most productive portion of public land anywhere from the first to the third day of rifle season while also running cattle through several different camps. Luckily, and by pure chance, nobody has been hurts and nothing destroyed. It is continual and relentless greed and entitlement. For a topper they get access to HUGE numbers of unrestricted tags through the RFW program......think being able to set their own hunting season and being able to let their clients hunt with rifles during both ruts while nobody else can. Sorry for the rant, but it is a real hot button issue with me.
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Post by Ahawkeye on May 31, 2023 1:25:17 GMT -5
Hot button issue here (with me) too. I've seen the cattle ranchers driving cattle and wildlife toward their ranches. Pizzes me off, my father and I spent a chunk of change and vacation time dealing with that situation once. Put a bad taste in my mouth for hunting out west. If I lived there and had the time to scout I feel like I could work around them but when you can't scout and can't keep an eye on an area it's hard to deal with this kind of stuff. I hope this case blows the doors open but something tells me it is only a step in the right direction.
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Post by duff on May 31, 2023 3:32:27 GMT -5
I agree…. Seems crazy that corner crossing is all the sudden big news. Personally I believe it’s been going with no problems and most didn’t care….. Big antlers can sure hype up thing it seems. Out here big landowners are absolute A-hole nazis about restricting or interfering public access all they can. They make huge sums money on outfitting businesses and hunts, especially if restricting public access gives them de facto exclusive access to prime hunting. Here is a good example I have to deal with yearly. I hunt public land that is bordered on 3 sides by large ranches. One of those has a LARGE outfitting business that runs deer and elk hunts adjacent to our hunting area. Elk hunts go for $8,200 and deer for $8,600. That landowner/rancher also has a huge grazing allotment for cattle on the public land. This includes huge amounts of fencing that is SUPPOSED to be down by hunting season and grazing sections that are SUPPOSED to be rotated year by year so as to give forage a chance to recover. Last year we came out to find that NOT ONLY were the cattle still out, they had totally destroyed every square inch of all of the sections....from 12,000' down to the valley floor, and left all of the fences up (which they had been working on apparently until the WEEK before hunting season-which just happens to push the animals down to THEIR land). Oh, and the last 3 years they have moved cattle off of their land through the most productive portion of public land anywhere from the first to the third day of rifle season while also running cattle through several different camps. Luckily, and by pure chance, nobody has been hurts and nothing destroyed. It is continual and relentless greed and entitlement. For a topper they get access to HUGE numbers of unrestricted tags through the RFW program......think being able to set their own hunting season and being able to let their clients hunt with rifles during both ruts while nobody else can. Sorry for the rant, but it is a real hot button issue with me. That's ugly.
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Post by greghopper on May 31, 2023 5:08:52 GMT -5
I read the other day that ranchers lease grazing rights on public land but it didn’t go into details.
I don’t see how this “blows the doors open” when it’s always been legal to corner cross……
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Post by greghopper on May 31, 2023 5:17:25 GMT -5
Hot button issue here (with me) too. I've seen the cattle ranchers driving cattle and wildlife toward their ranches. Pizzes me off, my father and I spent a chunk of change and vacation time dealing with that situation once. Put a bad taste in my mouth for hunting out west. If I lived there and had the time to scout I feel like I could work around them but when you can't scout and can't keep an eye on an area it's hard to deal with this kind of stuff. I hope this case blows the doors open but something tells me it is only a step in the right direction. Interesting that you had a ONE time experience then formed a negative opinion…..everyone is different I guess. Did someone tell you corner crossing was illegal when you was out there?
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Post by Ahawkeye on May 31, 2023 6:22:59 GMT -5
Hot button issue here (with me) too. I've seen the cattle ranchers driving cattle and wildlife toward their ranches. Pizzes me off, my father and I spent a chunk of change and vacation time dealing with that situation once. Put a bad taste in my mouth for hunting out west. If I lived there and had the time to scout I feel like I could work around them but when you can't scout and can't keep an eye on an area it's hard to deal with this kind of stuff. I hope this case blows the doors open but something tells me it is only a step in the right direction. Interesting that you had a ONE time experience then formed a negative opinion…..everyone is different I guess. Did someone tell you corner crossing was illegal when you was out there? I've been three times, once was to visit a friend, no hunting on that trip, second trip was my first hunting trip out there it was ok we got into elk but did not kill any third was where I saw the bad side of the west. I didn't know enough about the west to worry about corner crossing I was just told not to do it though by a friend in our group, I was pretty young back then and was just learning about how western hunting worked and the pros and cons. as the saying goes if I knew then what I knew now... finding corners is much easier now then it was then by the time online mapping came along I was just starting to learn quadrangle maps and how to order each map then they threw the whole map up on line and it opened up every inch of public ground to be seen by all. That's when corner crossing was kind of uncovered for me I scoured maps and dreamed of heading out there but was just starting my family and didn't want to spend the $ to go out there. I'm not saying I'll never go but I've still got that family to support and things aren't getting any cheaper. For someone to keep people out of, over utilize, or manipulate wildlife by pushing them to private all really makes me mad.
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Post by SFC (R) B on May 31, 2023 9:10:19 GMT -5
Hot button issue here (with me) too. I've seen the cattle ranchers driving cattle and wildlife toward their ranches. Pizzes me off, my father and I spent a chunk of change and vacation time dealing with that situation once. Put a bad taste in my mouth for hunting out west. If I lived there and had the time to scout I feel like I could work around them but when you can't scout and can't keep an eye on an area it's hard to deal with this kind of stuff. I hope this case blows the doors open but something tells me it is only a step in the right direction. Interesting that you had a ONE time experience then formed a negative opinion…..everyone is different I guess. Did someone tell you corner crossing was illegal when you was out there? Under Colorado state law corner crossing IS trespassing.
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Post by greghopper on May 31, 2023 9:28:30 GMT -5
WoW…. What a confusing issue this has to be for those in the area!
So is there a push to change the state law as written?
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Post by jman46151 on May 31, 2023 10:23:22 GMT -5
Interesting ladder……Yeah,even the judge expects an appeal. Long ways from being over… I believe at least one of the hunters owns/works for a fence company. So they knew exactly what and how to build something that would work for the situation and be light enough to carry.
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Post by jman46151 on May 31, 2023 10:35:31 GMT -5
As I learn about corner crossing I get more shocked by how many believed it to be law that you can't corner cross. I understand why select folks would want to make it illegal but I can't see how it would be legally justified. I agree…. Seems crazy that corner crossing is all the sudden big news. Personally I believe it’s been going with no problems and most didn’t care….. Big antlers can sure hype up thing it seems. It's been big news for a while to guys who deal with it all the time, but no one was willing to step up and do what these four hunters did and challenge it. Also I believe it was TRCP that actually put some data together a few years ago that showed the true scope of the inaccessible acres. There is 6x the amount of inaccessible land in WY as there is public land to hunt in Indiana. The last time I went to WY to hunt, I almost picked a unit based on the fact that it was widely known that the local DA wouldn't charge for it because he lost a case 10-15 years before that. But there was another county where they would cite you 100%. When you are wealthy and can donate money to the local DA's campaign the grey areas can become more black and white. I believe there needs to be an appeal to the Circuit Court level to make the decision legally binding as a precedent.
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Post by MuzzleLoader on May 31, 2023 10:37:24 GMT -5
Rooting for we the little peps.
Big land owners don’t own and can’t block out the public to our rights to access.
Really makes me sick you can tie this up in legal action.
Common sense is just gone in the world.
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Post by esshup on Jun 2, 2023 20:01:29 GMT -5
In Wyoming with my cousin who lives there. He knows a lot of landowners. We had permission from them all, PLUS they signed up for a program with the state where if a hunter harvested an animal on their land, you filled out a form and the landowner got some $$ for allowing the hunter to be there. We got to one property, and see "Posted, no trespassing. Leased by X&X Outfitters". My cousin called the landowner and he said he did NOT lease his ground, he's been fighting with that particular outfitter for years for posting signs on the fence to make it look like the land was not accessible.
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Post by Ahawkeye on Jun 3, 2023 21:25:41 GMT -5
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Post by Ahawkeye on Jun 3, 2023 21:27:34 GMT -5
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Post by Ahawkeye on Jun 3, 2023 21:28:07 GMT -5
Still a step in the right direction in my opinion.
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Post by jman46151 on Jun 5, 2023 11:31:07 GMT -5
“Corner crossing remains unlawful in Montana, and Montanans should continue to obtain permission from the adjoining landowners before crossing corners from one piece of public land to another,” Dustin Temple, FWP deputy director" He chose his words carefully...notice he didn't say illegal
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Post by jjas on Jun 5, 2023 12:00:31 GMT -5
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