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Post by esshup on Aug 23, 2022 7:35:02 GMT -5
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Post by greghopper on Aug 23, 2022 7:45:12 GMT -5
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Post by esshup on Aug 23, 2022 7:55:21 GMT -5
I think this is what is ultimately going to bite the ranch in the butt. "The federal civil trial — as-yet unscheduled — may address the two metal T-posts driven into Elk Mountain property at the four-corner intersection. Photographs show the posts connected across the corner by a wire and chain. The two posts were connected to nothing else — no property-line fences — a photograph shows. After the hunters left the area in 2021, the chain was removed, Elk Mountain Ranch property manager Grende testified at the Rawlins trial. “It was removed because it had no purpose,” he said in court. Courts have defined what constitutes an illegal enclosure, according to Madsen who quoted one ruling. “[W]hen, under the guise of enclosing his own land, builds a fence which is useless for that purpose, and can only have been intended to enclose the land of the government, he is plainly within the (unlawful enclosures) statute, and is guilty of an unwarrantable appropriation of that which belongs to the public at large,” he wrote."
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Post by jtclark on Aug 23, 2022 10:10:38 GMT -5
The mobs who don't "own it" are always going to out number and out vote a person who DOES "own it". Same old same old any where you go.
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Post by duff on Aug 23, 2022 15:57:47 GMT -5
I listened to the meateater pod cast on this case. Funny when politics and money mix at the legal crossing.
The case was presented 1 sided but hard to see where the other side had any legal stance.
1. Ranch mgr admitted the gate served no purpose. 2. They harassed the hunters after sheriff and conservation offers told him the hunters were doing nothing wrong. 3. Ranch mgr wanting to know where the hunters would be for 'safety" reasons???
The land owner is looking greedy and the manager is looking illegal for hunter harassment and now potentially other acts...I wonder how many other hunters had been run out of that area previously?
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Post by greghopper on Aug 23, 2022 17:32:48 GMT -5
I listened to the meateater pod cast on this case. Funny when politics and money mix at the legal crossing. The case was presented 1 sided but hard to see where the other side had any legal stance. 1. Ranch mgr admitted the gate served no purpose. 2. They harassed the hunters after sheriff and conservation offers told him the hunters were doing nothing wrong. 3. Ranch mgr wanting to know where the hunters would be for 'safety" reasons??? The land owner is looking greedy and the manager is looking illegal for hunter harassment and now potentially other acts...I wonder how many other hunters had been run out of that area previously? True…. I also wonder how many hunter have actually trespassed (feet on ground) and knew they was in the wrong? Differently some untold stories/facts on both sides I say.
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Post by Sasquatch on Aug 24, 2022 9:17:06 GMT -5
Seems pretty clear that the landowner in this particular case had enjoyed de-facto control of a random chunk of public land by virtue of surrounding it, and he wants to maintain that control. However, public land is public land, access rights are access rights. I think stringing that obvious barrier was a bad idea.
It's understandable to want to protect your property, but you got to know that this could come up if you surround public land.
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Post by treetop on Aug 24, 2022 10:43:12 GMT -5
It’s truly all about money they can control thousands of acres for hunting or grazing that’s our land and with this law it’s like owning a truck still got to make payments upkeep but not having the keys to use it Some elk hunts or mule deer hunts go 5 to 15 thousand sell 5 of those on that ground don’t take long to figure out why they don’t want us on that chunk of ground
To me a 4 foot wide easement two foot on each property would fix it your giving up maybe 50 sq foot of land and your really not giving it up just allows us the right to cross it
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Post by jtclark on Aug 24, 2022 12:30:53 GMT -5
It is ALWAYS about money. Money is time, money is your life, you trade your work, your time, other things you could have had or could have done for money or you don't.
Those who didn't, want what those who did, bought with it.
Lets make this more of an Indiana thing. Say a tree is growing in a property line. Pretty common occurrence in Indiana. A lot of farmer/land owners have use those for fence posts over the years. Now the fence even goes straight through the tree. Friends and neighbors have lived together for decades along that fence. Never a problem. Probably grandchildren of the people who put that fence there live and hunt next to each other by now.
Opening day there is a tree stand in that tree no one has ever climbed in a hundred years and that tree stand is hanging over your side looking down on the food plot you planted the last five years.
After a few days you find it is NOT any of your kids, your grandkids, nor any one any of you know off who hung it there or use it.
What do you do? Are they trespassing? What if they shoot a deer and it just happens to "jump the fence and die on your land"?
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Post by Ahawkeye on Aug 24, 2022 13:21:39 GMT -5
It is ALWAYS about money. Money is time, money is your life, you trade your work, your time, other things you could have had or could have done for money or you don't. Those who didn't, want what those who did, bought with it. Lets make this more of an Indiana thing. Say a tree is growing in a property line. Pretty common occurrence in Indiana. A lot of farmer/land owners have use those for fence posts over the years. Now the fence even goes straight through the tree. Friends and neighbors have lived together for decades along that fence. Never a problem. Probably grandchildren of the people who put that fence there live and hunt next to each other by now. Opening day there is a tree stand in that tree no one has ever climbed in a hundred years and that tree stand is hanging over your side looking down on the food plot you planted the last five years. After a few days you find it is NOT any of your kids, your grandkids, nor any one any of you know off who hung it there or use it. What do you do? Are they trespassing? What if they shoot a deer and it just happens to "jump the fence and die on your land"? This scenario you describe is a difficult situation for sure but the case at hand is a bit different in my opinion. My want is for the public ground hunters to win. I yhink they have a good case. In your scenario lets change that to one side is private the other is public. If the stand is 10 ft off the line on public or even 1 inch then well.. There's not much anyone can do about it. If a deer is shot across the line then it's illegal if it is shot and runs across to private then you have to get permission to retrieve it. If the tree stand straddles the line then I'd say the CO is gonna get a call.
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Post by greghopper on Aug 24, 2022 14:00:49 GMT -5
Tree stand on the line seems no different then someone using a ladder to straddle the property line …. Maybe not but sure seems the same to me!
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Post by treetop on Aug 24, 2022 16:58:53 GMT -5
It is ALWAYS about money. Money is time, money is your life, you trade your work, your time, other things you could have had or could have done for money or you don't. Those who didn't, want what those who did, bought with it. Lets make this more of an Indiana thing. Say a tree is growing in a property line. Pretty common occurrence in Indiana. A lot of farmer/land owners have use those for fence posts over the years. Now the fence even goes straight through the tree. Friends and neighbors have lived together for decades along that fence. Never a problem. Probably grandchildren of the people who put that fence there live and hunt next to each other by now. Opening day there is a tree stand in that tree no one has ever climbed in a hundred years and that tree stand is hanging over your side looking down on the food plot you planted the last five years. After a few days you find it is NOT any of your kids, your grandkids, nor any one any of you know off who hung it there or use it. What do you do? Are they trespassing? What if they shoot a deer and it just happens to "jump the fence and die on your land"? Imo it’s not the same if you said public one side and private the other than maybe Btw this is very common in my area I’ve lived it and fixed it on my ground. I could be wrong but the area this happened like many out west people probably are not going to hunt the fence row most tracks are squared off in miles or school sections not the back pasture why they were called that I have no idea but when I hunted out west every one called them that out there. We had two different ranchers tell us we could not drive down a road even though it was a public road granted not much more than a tractor path but yet still a public road that went through the property they owned I would imagine they both didn’t want us hunting ground that backed up to the ground they owned or feared we’d hunt the ground they owned.
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Post by Ahawkeye on Aug 24, 2022 17:25:18 GMT -5
Tree stand on the line seems no different then someone using a ladder to straddle the property line …. Maybe not but sure seems the same to me! In my opinion, the ladder over the corner shows no intent to hunt or trespass. The ladder had to be used to clear the obstruction the ranch manager placed in the way of accessing public ground. I dont see this going the ranchers way. We shall see. If a tree stand is one inch or even a quarter of an inch off of private there's not much anyone can do about it until a law is broken. If a deer is shot on public from said stand and runs onto private then the trouble starts. I don't like the hassle so I hunt as far away from private as I can. Others don't see it that way and hunt the crossings. Too many headaches for me.
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Post by duff on Aug 24, 2022 18:20:56 GMT -5
The court of law already proved the hunters were not violating a law. Isnt the current lawsuit just to determine if the hunters are owed an appology$$$ for the trouble the manager and land owner created?
If the land owner could prove the hunters actually trespassed this case would have been closed long ago.
Another comparison is the right of ways for navigatable waterways. State owns to normal high water mark. So if I can access the water legally then I can walk, wade, swim, camp, hunt, fish...so long I stay below the normal high water mark.
And if the river is flooded into a field I can't anchor, walk or touch the dirt but could float or boat over your property.
These situations are tested every year. Ask pigeonflier how his interaction turned out
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Post by greghopper on Aug 24, 2022 18:27:27 GMT -5
It’s hard to judge intent for sure … be it a ladder or a tree stand. If you’re not putting feet on the ground there shouldn’t be a problem.
Playing the “I am lost” card only works one time at most.
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Post by treetop on Aug 24, 2022 18:31:47 GMT -5
Tree stand on the line seems no different then someone using a ladder to straddle the property line …. Maybe not but sure seems the same to me! In my opinion, the ladder over the corner shows no intent to hunt or trespass. The ladder had to be used to clear the obstruction the ranch manager placed in the way of accessing public ground. I dont see this going the ranchers way. We shall see. If a tree stand is one inch or even a quarter of an inch off of private there's not much anyone can do about it until a law is broken. If a deer is shot on public from said stand and runs onto private then the trouble starts. I don't like the hassle so I hunt as far away from private as I can. Others don't see it that way and hunt the crossings. Too many headaches for me. Yes sir if they are off your ground a 1/4 of a inch your 100 percent right no law has been broken but you can give up some hunting and ride that fence row tree line every hour or two with a ranger I guarantee you they will get the hint fast just saying not that I’d ever do something like that.
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Post by greghopper on Aug 24, 2022 18:35:02 GMT -5
The court of law already proved the hunters were not violating a law. Isnt the current lawsuit just to determine if the hunters are owed an appology$$$ for the trouble the manager and land owner created? If the land owner could prove the hunters actually trespassed this case would have been closed long ago. Another comparison is the right of ways for navigatable waterways. State owns to normal high water mark. So if I can access the water legally then I can walk, wade, swim, camp, hunt, fish...so long I stay below the normal high water mark. And if the river is flooded into a field I can't anchor, walk or touch the dirt but could float or boat over your property. These situations are tested every year. Ask pigeonflier how his interaction turned out It’s a civil suit now I believe…Here is the current lawsuit. redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=1336408&u=https%3A//cowboystatedaily.com/2022/07/22/judge-denies-dismissal-in-wyoming-corner-crossing-case/BTW….. as for Pigeon let just say “Feet Wet” 😊
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Post by freedomhunter on Aug 24, 2022 19:02:59 GMT -5
In my opinion, the ladder over the corner shows no intent to hunt or trespass. The ladder had to be used to clear the obstruction the ranch manager placed in the way of accessing public ground. I dont see this going the ranchers way. We shall see. If a tree stand is one inch or even a quarter of an inch off of private there's not much anyone can do about it until a law is broken. If a deer is shot on public from said stand and runs onto private then the trouble starts. I don't like the hassle so I hunt as far away from private as I can. Others don't see it that way and hunt the crossings. Too many headaches for me. Yes sir if they are off your ground a 1/4 of a inch your 100 percent right no law has been broken but you can give up some hunting and ride that fence row tree line every hour or two with a ranger I guarantee you they will get the hint fast just saying not that I’d ever do something like that. My buddy and I got so tired of the field neighbor when I used to hunt Freedom area. Guy had part of a power pole with steps on it and a platform on a tree in the fence line. All woods were on our side. We figured heck with it hanging over line so my buddy hunted it and smoked a doe on our side. Dude shows up demanding to know if one of us was in his stand (muddy boot prints on it). Two to one all with slug guns he thought better after a few short seconds. Freaking line sitters.
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Post by Ahawkeye on Aug 24, 2022 19:20:20 GMT -5
As stated I don't like the line sitters either but running up and down the line with your side by side on the opening day of gun season is one way to deter them if you would rather do that then hunt. I would rather hunt way far away than anyone else. But they are still not breaking the law until they shoot across that line or go retrieving animal across the line.
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Post by pigeonflier on Aug 24, 2022 19:27:21 GMT -5
The court of law already proved the hunters were not violating a law. Isnt the current lawsuit just to determine if the hunters are owed an appology$$$ for the trouble the manager and land owner created? If the land owner could prove the hunters actually trespassed this case would have been closed long ago. Another comparison is the right of ways for navigatable waterways. State owns to normal high water mark. So if I can access the water legally then I can walk, wade, swim, camp, hunt, fish...so long I stay below the normal high water mark. And if the river is flooded into a field I can't anchor, walk or touch the dirt but could float or boat over your property. These situations are tested every year. Ask pigeonflier how his interaction turned out You can not go over property that is flooded. Even if your coming from the main river. No matter the water level you CAN NOT go past the normal high water mark which is the vegetation line. If your in a field that happens to be flooded because the river is out of its banks your trespassing. Don't go past the veg line. But if your below that veg line and in a navigable water then not a soul can bother you. And if they do then they are hunter harrasing you and can be ticketed.
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