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Post by esshup on Aug 24, 2022 19:35:14 GMT -5
Here's a slightly different situation. My cousin lives in Wyoming. There is area out there that is private land but the landowner worked out a deal with the Wyoming fish and game to let the public hunt his land. If you shoot a critter on his property, there is a drop box on the fence at the gate, and another box with Wyoming Fish and Game forms with the landowners information on both halves. You fill out the form with your license number and personal information along with what critter you shot, time, date, etc. Drop half in the box, keep the other half. The landowner gets paid $25/$50 or something like that per critter harvested from the state.
There was a very large Outfitter that put up signs on the fence near the gate "leased by XYZ Outfitters, no public hunting allowed". Since my cousin knew the landowner, he called him. The landowner was furious, he said that yes, they contacted him to lease his property and he said no. He told us to go hunt it and don't worry about it, he would take care of the signs. I did shoot an antelope there and filled out the required paperwork. The drop box and empty paperwork box that was furnished by the state was down in the weeds, my cousin knew what to put on the paperwork that we shoved in the drop box using blank paper we had in the truck. I believe the program was called Access Yes or something like that. It was 2010 IIRC.
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Post by duff on Aug 24, 2022 19:38:43 GMT -5
The court of law already proved the hunters were not violating a law. Isnt the current lawsuit just to determine if the hunters are owed an appology$$$ for the trouble the manager and land owner created? If the land owner could prove the hunters actually trespassed this case would have been closed long ago. Another comparison is the right of ways for navigatable waterways. State owns to normal high water mark. So if I can access the water legally then I can walk, wade, swim, camp, hunt, fish...so long I stay below the normal high water mark. And if the river is flooded into a field I can't anchor, walk or touch the dirt but could float or boat over your property. These situations are tested every year. Ask pigeonflier how his interaction turned out It’s a civil suit now I believe…Here is the current lawsuit. redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=1336408&u=https%3A//cowboystatedaily.com/2022/07/22/judge-denies-dismissal-in-wyoming-corner-crossing-case/BTW….. as for Pigeon let just say “Feet Wet” 😊 Wet feet vs muddy feet? If the hunters didn't have mud on their boots from private land how is it a civil or criminal case? Or any different than a canoe rider floating between my waterfront property and the island on the wabash that is above normal high water mark?
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Post by Ahawkeye on Aug 24, 2022 19:39:32 GMT -5
The court of law already proved the hunters were not violating a law. Isnt the current lawsuit just to determine if the hunters are owed an appology$$$ for the trouble the manager and land owner created? If the land owner could prove the hunters actually trespassed this case would have been closed long ago. Another comparison is the right of ways for navigatable waterways. State owns to normal high water mark. So if I can access the water legally then I can walk, wade, swim, camp, hunt, fish...so long I stay below the normal high water mark. And if the river is flooded into a field I can't anchor, walk or touch the dirt but could float or boat over your property. These situations are tested every year. Ask pigeonflier how his interaction turned out You can not go over property that is flooded. Even if your coming from the main river. No matter the water level you CAN NOT go past the normal high water mark which is the vegetation line. If your in a field that happens to be flooded because the river is out of its banks your trespassing. Don't go past the veg line. But if your below that veg line and in a navigable water then not a soul can bother you. And if they do then they are hunter harrasing you and can be ticketed. Yes over veg line into a flooded field is trespassing, however these guys were not sitting on private ground they "jumped" from public to public with zero intent to hunt or set foot on private or hover or float above for an extended period of time. Bottom line as stated above the rancher or ranch manager is blocking the access to public ground for his own gain. He can sugar coat that all he wants but a fool would not see the truth.
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Post by greghopper on Aug 24, 2022 19:48:12 GMT -5
As stated I don't like the line sitters either but running up and down the line with your side by side on the opening day of gun season is one way to deter them if you would rather do that then hunt. I would rather hunt way far away than anyone else. But they are still not breaking the law until they shoot across that line or go retrieving animal across the line. That’s also boarder line Hunter harassment!
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Post by Ahawkeye on Aug 24, 2022 20:54:55 GMT -5
As stated I don't like the line sitters either but running up and down the line with your side by side on the opening day of gun season is one way to deter them if you would rather do that then hunt. I would rather hunt way far away than anyone else. But they are still not breaking the law until they shoot across that line or go retrieving animal across the line. That’s also boarder line Hunter harassment! I agree 100%
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Post by jtclark on Aug 24, 2022 21:21:33 GMT -5
It is ALWAYS about money. Money is time, money is your life, you trade your work, your time, other things you could have had or could have done for money or you don't. Those who didn't, want what those who did, bought with it. Lets make this more of an Indiana thing. Say a tree is growing in a property line. Pretty common occurrence in Indiana. A lot of farmer/land owners have use those for fence posts over the years. Now the fence even goes straight through the tree. Friends and neighbors have lived together for decades along that fence. Never a problem. Probably grandchildren of the people who put that fence there live and hunt next to each other by now. Opening day there is a tree stand in that tree no one has ever climbed in a hundred years and that tree stand is hanging over your side looking down on the food plot you planted the last five years. After a few days you find it is NOT any of your kids, your grandkids, nor any one any of you know off who hung it there or use it. What do you do? Are they trespassing? What if they shoot a deer and it just happens to "jump the fence and die on your land"? This scenario you describe is a difficult situation for sure but the case at hand is a bit different in my opinion. My want is for the public ground hunters to win. I yhink they have a good case. In your scenario lets change that to one side is private the other is public. If the stand is 10 ft off the line on public or even 1 inch then well.. There's not much anyone can do about it. If a deer is shot across the line then it's illegal if it is shot and runs across to private then you have to get permission to retrieve it. If the tree stand straddles the line then I'd say the CO is gonna get a call. I don't see it as any different at all. The line is the line. Private on one side and something else on the other. The other is the other, regardless of who climbs up the "other" side. Half the tree is yours and their tree stand is hanging over the line and facing your food plot, you spent your life, your money, your time buying the groun. Then spent your time and money planting the plot. Any one else could have done all the same BUT THEY DIDN'T. So now what? They are not touching your ground. They never set foot on your ground.
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Post by Ahawkeye on Aug 24, 2022 21:46:57 GMT -5
I agree over the line is over the line hunting. But.... A corner crossing has a lot of "angles" to it. Let's put it another way. I live on a corner lot, the road makes a 90 degree turn on one of my corners. Someone with a trailer cuts the corner too sharp. Should I call the law? If I do call the law are they going to do anything about it? Probably not. Am I worried about the grass or the tire mark in my yard? My perspective: yeah it kinda sucks but it's an honest mistake they weren't trying to take anything away from me. Case in point, the 4 hunters knew they were corner crossing, they had no intent of trespassing OR hunting on private ground. They did less damage to this rancher than the guy that cut the corner of my yard. All they are doing is accessing public ground via public ground. Ok lets talk about air space for a minute are you going to sue every jet liner that crosses your property? What about the low flying crop duster? Or (I realize this will strike a nerve) the kid down the road flying a drone? The tree stand scenario as you explained is 100% illegal. But are these guys hunting private ground? No. Are they crossing a minute piece of private to get to public? Yes. Is it illegal? Right now they are trying to figure that out. Is the rancher REALLY worried about 6 square inches of his ground? I think not. Is the rancher trying to keep everyone out of a public piece of ground so he can have full ues of it for free? You can bet the farm that he is!
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Post by treetop on Aug 24, 2022 22:23:43 GMT -5
As stated I don't like the line sitters either but running up and down the line with your side by side on the opening day of gun season is one way to deter them if you would rather do that then hunt. I would rather hunt way far away than anyone else. But they are still not breaking the law until they shoot across that line or go retrieving animal across the line. Not to pick a fight with you Have you spent endless hours improving land just for wildlife Has your neighbors shot a deer three years in a row than wanted to come on your ground and try and track a deer because they made a bad shot at least according to them Do your neighbors own 80 acres with 12 acres of woods on it not even close to your property line yet sets stands right on the line Does your neighbor do the same thing to his other neighbor that has improved his ground Not all of us have vast amounts of ground to hunt and try and make the best of what we have I also wish I had 400 acres to get away from people but I don’t Again I’m not trying to get into a p contest with you but I’ve had this bone head put a blind 50 yards from a tripod that’s been there for 20 years long before him yes it’s closer to the line but I’ve never hunted facing his property Hunter Harassment probably if not dang close to it but I’ve had enough of this guy and so has the other neighbor who he does the same thing to him
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Post by jtclark on Aug 24, 2022 22:40:24 GMT -5
I agree over the line is over the line hunting. But.... A corner crossing has a lot of "angles" to it. Let's put it another way. I live on a corner lot, the road makes a 90 degree turn on one of my corners. Someone with a trailer cuts the corner too sharp. Should I call the law? If I do call the law are they going to do anything about it? Probably not. Am I worried about the grass or the tire mark in my yard? My perspective: yeah it kinda sucks but it's an honest mistake they weren't trying to take anything away from me. Case in point, the 4 hunters knew they were corner crossing, they had no intent of trespassing OR hunting on private ground. They did less damage to this rancher than the guy that cut the corner of my yard. All they are doing is accessing public ground via public ground. Ok lets talk about air space for a minute are you going to sue every jet liner that crosses your property? What about the low flying crop duster? Or (I realize this will strike a nerve) the kid down the road flying a drone? The tree stand scenario as you explained is 100% illegal. But are these guys hunting private ground? No. Are they crossing a minute piece of private to get to public? Yes. Is it illegal? Right now they are trying to figure that out. Is the rancher REALLY worried about 6 square inches of his ground? I think not. Is the rancher trying to keep everyone out of a public piece of ground so he can have full ues of it for free? You can bet the farm that he is! The law is the law. 1st time or 10th time or 10 people's 1st time each. What if the guy driving his trailer through your yard is your neighbor and he is doing it everyday? May be in and out twice a day? You didn't complain yesterday, last week or last year? Now it is a mud hole and the other neighbor is doing it to... Mud holes don't get smaller ya know. What if they wind up killing your persimmon tree you nursed along for 10 years. It's your ground, can't you use for your own desired purpose? What does the rancher do next year after these hunters win this suit to gain use of private land they never paid for. Next year there are 50 hunters using that step ladder and the first on there decides that step ladder would be a heck of a deer stand and he don't have to carry it all the way back there so he plops there for the week end. Court already said he has right to use it like it is his own. He just blocked you our of corner crossing. Who is gonna sue HIM? Go around him doubling the amount of use of the land OWNERS? If you put the step ladder there do you own that?
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Post by Ahawkeye on Aug 25, 2022 4:51:24 GMT -5
As stated I don't like the line sitters either but running up and down the line with your side by side on the opening day of gun season is one way to deter them if you would rather do that then hunt. I would rather hunt way far away than anyone else. But they are still not breaking the law until they shoot across that line or go retrieving animal across the line. Not to pick a fight with you Have you spent endless hours improving land just for wildlife Has your neighbors shot a deer three years in a row than wanted to come on your ground and try and track a deer because they made a bad shot at least according to them Do your neighbors own 80 acres with 12 acres of woods on it not even close to your property line yet sets stands right on the line Does your neighbor do the same thing to his other neighbor that has improved his ground Not all of us have vast amounts of ground to hunt and try and make the best of what we have I also wish I had 400 acres to get away from people but I don’t Again I’m not trying to get into a p contest with you but I’ve had this bone head put a blind 50 yards from a tripod that’s been there for 20 years long before him yes it’s closer to the line but I’ve never hunted facing his property Hunter Harassment probably if not dang close to it but I’ve had enough of this guy and so has the other neighbor who he does the same thing to him I am in no way picking a fight either, we're just talking and bringing different views to the subject. I don't personally own 400 acres, I don't have access to 1 acre of private property to to deer hunt. I have a couple hundred thousand acres of public ground I'm allowed to hunt. I have to share but I have access to it just the same as you or anyone else. So no I've never experienced what you are describing. It sounds as if you have a bummer of a neighbor that's for sure. I have a friend who deals with a line sitter and it's not fun but you nor he can do anything until the law is broken. If said line sitter waits until the deer are on his ground, shoots the deer and the deer continues to run onto his ground and dies there's no law broken. Disheartening? Yes. Ethical? Maybe, maybe not. Illegal? No. Now, lets go to the corner of your property you have 400 acres on one corner and the 80 that you are presently hunting diagonal from each other. Your grandpa and his grandpa agreed that you could access your 400 acres via his ground (he ownes the other 2 corners). Then one day he says no you can't access that ground from here anymore. The other access sides and corners are owned by the mafia a coal mine and Joe Biden's second cousin who doesn't allow hunting. So now what do you do? That's YOUR land and he won't let you access YOUR land. The coal mine won't let you access due to safety reasons, the mafia is hiding drugs and Jimmy Hoffa so you're not going to get access that way and Joe Biden's second cousin has his side covered in cameras. BUT THAT'S YOUR LAND all you want to do is step from YOUR PROPERTY to YOUR PROPERTY. So you are cut off while you are pretty darn sure he's got stands in there and is now hunting or even allowing his buddies to hunt for a fee on your ground. These fees are all under the table of course. So you say the heck with it I'm stepping over I'm not hunting on him I'm not even stepping on him I'm just accessing MY land. He calls the law but they are too busy watching the mafia to deal with this situation. I would hope you might see the situation from my side of it. The land this ramcher and many others are blocking is MY land and as the song goes it's YOUR land as well but he and others are keeping us out of these tracts so they can use it for themselves. Your current situation holds merit and I wish you luck with it. I think in a perfect world we'd all get along but it's not perfect. There are different sides to this corner crossing issue. Your property line sitting neighbor does seem to be causing a frustrating situation.
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Post by Ahawkeye on Aug 25, 2022 5:16:26 GMT -5
I agree over the line is over the line hunting. But.... A corner crossing has a lot of "angles" to it. Let's put it another way. I live on a corner lot, the road makes a 90 degree turn on one of my corners. Someone with a trailer cuts the corner too sharp. Should I call the law? If I do call the law are they going to do anything about it? Probably not. Am I worried about the grass or the tire mark in my yard? My perspective: yeah it kinda sucks but it's an honest mistake they weren't trying to take anything away from me. Case in point, the 4 hunters knew they were corner crossing, they had no intent of trespassing OR hunting on private ground. They did less damage to this rancher than the guy that cut the corner of my yard. All they are doing is accessing public ground via public ground. Ok lets talk about air space for a minute are you going to sue every jet liner that crosses your property? What about the low flying crop duster? Or (I realize this will strike a nerve) the kid down the road flying a drone? The tree stand scenario as you explained is 100% illegal. But are these guys hunting private ground? No. Are they crossing a minute piece of private to get to public? Yes. Is it illegal? Right now they are trying to figure that out. Is the rancher REALLY worried about 6 square inches of his ground? I think not. Is the rancher trying to keep everyone out of a public piece of ground so he can have full ues of it for free? You can bet the farm that he is! The law is the law. 1st time or 10th time or 10 people's 1st time each. What if the guy driving his trailer through your yard is your neighbor and he is doing it everyday? May be in and out twice a day? You didn't complain yesterday, last week or last year? Now it is a mud hole and the other neighbor is doing it to... Mud holes don't get smaller ya know. What if they wind up killing your persimmon tree you nursed along for 10 years. It's your ground, can't you use for your own desired purpose? What does the rancher do next year after these hunters win this suit to gain use of private land they never paid for. Next year there are 50 hunters using that step ladder and the first on there decides that step ladder would be a heck of a deer stand and he don't have to carry it all the way back there so he plops there for the week end. Court already said he has right to use it like it is his own. He just blocked you our of corner crossing. Who is gonna sue HIM? Go around him doubling the amount of use of the land OWNERS? If you put the step ladder there do you own that? You make some good points as well, the trailer thing really does happen about once a month or so. The previous owner of my home set some large stones in the ground so I can mow over it and not have any issues. The trailers still cut the corner but it's not as bad as it was before the stones. Funny you bring up the persimmon tree. I once had a neighbor kill one of my trees on purpose and tried to tell me he didn't do it. There were 1 inch drill holes at the base of the tree. We had a talk he denied it and I called his bluff we didn't talk for about 6 months. He later came over and apologized for the incident and took the tree down. We were ok after that but I kept an eye on him. You are right if you give some just the smallest opening they will take a mile. I have to go to work now so I don't have time for a long discussion right now but if you look at my above post it kind if brings the other side of some people's story into it. What if we could make a olan to truly make corner crossing legal with little to no impact to private land? Yes there will be some bad apples but what if it went smooth for the most part? Maybe create a buffer of 25 yards where you can't hunt in that area on either side of that line? I realize this creates more of a headache with more laws but there's still MILLIONS of acres that are public that are inaccessible due to being landlocked. Have a good day everyone!
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Aug 25, 2022 5:25:34 GMT -5
I'm not sure everyone in this conversation even knows what corner crossing really is. It's not driving a trailer through somebody's yard. It's not hunting on somebody else's property. It's not using someone else's land, for any purpose. It is literally stepping from one piece of public land to another, never stepping foot on private land.
There are millions of acres of public land, owned and paid for by all taxpayers, being farmed and outfitted for the profit of a few rich landowners, to the exclusion of the non-paying public. That is why they try their best to block public access.
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Post by greghopper on Aug 25, 2022 6:02:37 GMT -5
I agree over the line is over the line hunting. But.... A corner crossing has a lot of "angles" to it. Let's put it another way. I live on a corner lot, the road makes a 90 degree turn on one of my corners. Someone with a trailer cuts the corner too sharp. Should I call the law? If I do call the law are they going to do anything about it? Probably not. Am I worried about the grass or the tire mark in my yard? My perspective: yeah it kinda sucks but it's an honest mistake they weren't trying to take anything away from me. Case in point, the 4 hunters knew they were corner crossing, they had no intent of trespassing OR hunting on private ground. They did less damage to this rancher than the guy that cut the corner of my yard. All they are doing is accessing public ground via public ground. Ok lets talk about air space for a minute are you going to sue every jet liner that crosses your property? What about the low flying crop duster? Or (I realize this will strike a nerve) the kid down the road flying a drone? The tree stand scenario as you explained is 100% illegal. But are these guys hunting private ground? No. Are they crossing a minute piece of private to get to public? Yes. Is it illegal? Right now they are trying to figure that out. Is the rancher REALLY worried about 6 square inches of his ground? I think not. Is the rancher trying to keep everyone out of a public piece of ground so he can have full ues of it for free? You can bet the farm that he is! That’s is a lot of assumption….. Do you actually know these 4 hunter’s or the Rancher? I remember the last thread where someone gave a example of Rancher letting someone access their land then the owner found them hunting his land.
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Post by Ahawkeye on Aug 25, 2022 6:38:52 GMT -5
I agree over the line is over the line hunting. But.... A corner crossing has a lot of "angles" to it. Let's put it another way. I live on a corner lot, the road makes a 90 degree turn on one of my corners. Someone with a trailer cuts the corner too sharp. Should I call the law? If I do call the law are they going to do anything about it? Probably not. Am I worried about the grass or the tire mark in my yard? My perspective: yeah it kinda sucks but it's an honest mistake they weren't trying to take anything away from me. Case in point, the 4 hunters knew they were corner crossing, they had no intent of trespassing OR hunting on private ground. They did less damage to this rancher than the guy that cut the corner of my yard. All they are doing is accessing public ground via public ground. Ok lets talk about air space for a minute are you going to sue every jet liner that crosses your property? What about the low flying crop duster? Or (I realize this will strike a nerve) the kid down the road flying a drone? The tree stand scenario as you explained is 100% illegal. But are these guys hunting private ground? No. Are they crossing a minute piece of private to get to public? Yes. Is it illegal? Right now they are trying to figure that out. Is the rancher REALLY worried about 6 square inches of his ground? I think not. Is the rancher trying to keep everyone out of a public piece of ground so he can have full ues of it for free? You can bet the farm that he is! That’s is a lot of assumption….. Do you actually know these 4 hunter’s or the Rancher? I remember the last thread where someone gave a example of Rancher letting someone access their land then the owner found them hunting his land. Not much assumption in my opinion.
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Post by greghopper on Aug 25, 2022 6:59:18 GMT -5
So you do know all parties involved?
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Post by Ahawkeye on Aug 25, 2022 7:43:50 GMT -5
If it looks like a duck and smells like a duck....
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Post by esshup on Aug 25, 2022 10:33:11 GMT -5
If I were in this group of 4 hunters, this year I'd talk with the other 3 guys and see about hiring a helicopter to set our butts down 20' inside the public property line, flip the bird to the rancher and go on my merry way. Would there be a prohibition from landing the helicopter on the public land? I don't know. jtclark said: "What does the rancher do next year after these hunters win this suit to gain use of private land they never paid for. Next year there are 50 hunters using that step ladder and the first on there decides that step ladder would be a heck of a deer stand and he don't have to carry it all the way back there so he plops there for the week end. Court already said he has right to use it like it is his own. He just blocked you our of corner crossing. Who is gonna sue HIM? Go around him doubling the amount of use of the land OWNERS? If you put the step ladder there do you own that?" First off, "What does the rancher do next year after these hunters win this suit to gain use of private land they never paid for." That is wrong. ALL of us hunters AND non-hunters paid for that PUBLIC property with our taxes. They are NOT hunting on private ground. The landowner is saying that they violated his airspace and that hurt him. From this article: wyofile.com/corner-crossers-face-new-civil-suit-as-prosecutor-tries-to-add-charge/To carry out corner crossing, “the person must physically travel across the privately-owned [sic] real property,” Iron Bar Holdings alleges in its civil suit. Iron Bar owns and controls the airspace above its real property, “even if Defendants did not step onto the surface of the Property. Laws allow boaters to traverse navigable waters across private property and low-level flight that does not “interfere with the existing use” of the private land, according to the dismissal motion. Given those circumstances, plus case law and the statutes themselves, a hunter could even strap an unworkable drone on his or her back and legally cross a corner, the motion states. The bowhunters’ attorneys suggest that any reading of trespass laws that allow such an interpretation — a reading proposed by those charging the bowhunters — is absurd, should be rejected and disqualified as the basis of charges. “A reality where this is actually the case is an absurd reality, and an interpretation of law that creates absurd results,” the motion states. “Such an interpretation would mean that a hiker running from a mountain lion, who swings their flailing arms over a private property line, has committed criminal trespass.” The big theoretical question is what if a hunter would strap a workable drone to his back, fire it up, and jump from one corner to the other. Could he then claim that the drone helped him "create low-leevl flight" even for a nano second and that would make him untouchable to corner cross? If I were the hunters, I'd file a hunter harassment charge, because "The hunters allege the Elk Mountain Ranch Manager Steve Grende illegally harassed them while they were hunting on public land." If that is true, then "Hunter harassment itself is illegal in Wyoming and aggrieved parties can file a civil suit. “Actual damages recoverable may include, but are not limited to expenditures for licenses, travel, outfitters and guides and special equipment and supplies to the extent the expenditures are rendered futile by the person’s conduct in violation of this section,” the law states.“If the trier of fact finds that the unlawful conduct was malicious, it may award punitive damage to the injured party,” the statute reads.
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Post by greghopper on Aug 25, 2022 11:29:02 GMT -5
Calling a CO or LEO when assuming someone is in the wrong or braking laws is NOT Hunter Harassment….BTDT
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Post by esshup on Aug 25, 2022 12:05:18 GMT -5
Calling a CO or LEO when assuming someone is in the wrong or braking laws is NOT Hunter Harassment….BTDT That is true, but where did it say the CO/LEO was called?
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Post by greghopper on Aug 25, 2022 12:13:05 GMT -5
Calling a CO or LEO when assuming someone is in the wrong or braking laws is NOT Hunter Harassment….BTDT That is true, but where did it say the CO/LEO was called? It doesn’t….. so how was they being harassed then? Guessing that part was left out on purpose…..Or that’s what happened! We can only assume….. but there’s a lot that in thread also!
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