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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 12:08:12 GMT -5
Billy, everybody knows what is canned hunting, its what was depicted in the Bellar video. Preserves can offer hunting that is not canned and do every day. I have a friend in Florida that has 1000 acres fenced. My B-I-L who owns Pape's archery has 800 acres fenced. You can hunt and not see any deer the same as hunting in a 40 acre block of timber. I agree that with 5 acre kill pens it is a canned situation. It depends on the size of the enclosure
As for CWD, its just as likely to come in from a dead deer or elk as it is from a monitored deer pen. Deer farms in a 5 year moniyored program are not going to be a source for the disease.
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Post by jjas on Mar 21, 2013 13:30:43 GMT -5
People can call it whatever they want.......
But if a deer is killed behind a high fence it won't be eligible for P&Y scoring. If it's killed behind a high fence it won't be eligible for B&C scoring. If a genetically manipulated deer is killed it won't be eligible for scoring. Why? All of these scenarios are not considered fair chase.
As I stated earlier...for many this is about deer shopping. People pay to put themselves in high fence enclosures to kill a certain class of deer. They know what deer are in there. In many cases they pay by the inch. And in some cases they are killing genetically altered deer that "didn't make the cut" to be used for semen sales, and are released into the preserve to be killed by those who can write the check.
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Post by swilk on Mar 21, 2013 14:09:57 GMT -5
Not considered "fair chase" by that particular club. Same as high let off bows used to be ... and things like lighted nocks still are.
I wouldnt let B&C or P&Y be my litmus test for what is or isnt ethical/good/fair ... whatever you want to call it.
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Post by sakorifle on Mar 21, 2013 14:13:25 GMT -5
Really is my last word The general public that hear these stories do not differentiate between a thousand acre pen and a 2 acre pen, as far as they are concerned one is killing penned animals' It is doing the true take a chance hunter no favours at all, as is proved by the tone of the original article.
Timex i agree to disagree my friend. regards to you and yours Billy
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Post by jjas on Mar 21, 2013 14:40:57 GMT -5
Not considered "fair chase" by that particular club. Same as high let off bows used to be ... and things like lighted nocks still are. I wouldnt let B&C or P&Y be my litmus test for what is or isnt ethical/good/fair ... whatever you want to call it. From an equipment standpoint I've disagreed with P&Y in the past and do on crossbows now. Having said that...I do agree with both P&Y and B&C on fair chase when it comes to high fence operations that animals can't move to and from. The whole point of me illustrating the P&Y and B&C rules was to let people know who might be interested in frequenting places such as these, that the animals killed likely won't be eligible for inclusion into the record books (if that is important to them). In other words...it would stink to spend 20k on a hunt to kill a "frankendeer" and then find out that your "checkbook" buck wasn't eligible for "record book" status....LOL.....
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Post by swilk on Mar 21, 2013 14:53:58 GMT -5
Size of enclosure has to matter ..... tens of thousands of acres surrounded by a fence is little different than most open ground in terms of killing a critter.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 15:25:27 GMT -5
Not considered "fair chase" by that particular club. Same as high let off bows used to be ... and things like lighted nocks still are. I wouldnt let B&C or P&Y be my litmus test for what is or isnt ethical/good/fair ... whatever you want to call it. From an equipment standpoint I've disagreed with P&Y in the past and do on crossbows now. Having said that...I do agree with both P&Y and B&C on fair chase when it comes to high fence operations that animals can't move to and from. The whole point of me illustrating the P&Y and B&C rules was to let people know who might be interested in frequenting places such as these, that the animals killed likely won't be eligible for inclusion into the record books (if that is important to them). In other words...it would stink to spend 20k on a hunt to kill a "frankendeer" and then find out that your "checkbook" buck wasn't eligible for "record book" status....LOL..... Most ALL of the other scoring clubs admit game farm animals including Safari Club, International.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 15:33:34 GMT -5
Really is my last word The general public that hear these stories do not differentiate between a thousand acre pen and a 2 acre pen, as far as they are concerned one is killing penned animals' It is doing the true take a chance hunter no favours at all, as is proved by the tone of the original article. Timex i agree to disagree my friend. regards to you and yours Billy Billy, I believe you would find a world of difference in the general NON-hunting public in England and what you would find in the USA. Those that don't hunt, are mostly still supportive of hunting. Very much so, and even though they are not really aware of the game farms, would no doubt opt for landowner rights over closing these places down. If put to a vote, as mentioned above, the sportsmen against these places would come up on the losing end. They generally have the support of the Farm Burea and several other assoc. that have clout with farm families. The only influence that anti-hunters have here is in the inner cities and in states like Ind. or Ky. they have very little there. Sportsmen always carry the day when ever they confront. Always. Mainly because the support of the non-hunting public. It doesn't hurt that the non-hunting public knows the economic impact these place have and hunting in general. That's why the cat is out of the bag on these places and will probably never be closed down. Votes and money. Sportsmen are better served to seek a workable compromise on the main issues then spend time fighting on threads such as this.
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Post by daneowner on Mar 21, 2013 19:04:21 GMT -5
Safari Club web site says they accept free range and "estate" deer. No where on their web site could I find their definition of an estate. Is it any high fence or pen area, a minimum acreage? I have to assume any size "estate" is acceptable to them. Just raise him, shoot him, and we'll score him. I don't believe this is acceptable to the non-hunting public nor the hunting public. If it came to a public vote, I would vote NO and believe most would.
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Post by GS1 on Mar 21, 2013 19:06:47 GMT -5
It should tell you something when the owners of these facilities are publicly posting that "it is not a good time to report a missing deer in Indiana" after the Pennsylvania deer went missing. They do not care about the wild deer herd. It is up to the true sportsmen to stand up and protect our wildlife.
The problem with relying on people siding with "landowner rights" is that it doesn't always work. My neighbor owns 7 acres that his house sits on. The company that he is Vice President of owns 27,000 in our county alone. When moved here he wanted to stop hunting on the property. Was it because of landowner rights? No, it was because he is a non-hunter and likes animals.
Animal rights will win over landowner rights more often than not. Everyone can have feelings for animals. If it was put on a ballot, HSUS, PETA an every other anti-hunting organization you could think of would be dumping money into Indiana and the pens would be defeated on emotion alone.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 19:16:59 GMT -5
GS your post makes no sense, the fellow certainly could stop hunting on his 7 acres but the 27,000 acres doesn't belong to him. The owners would have the right to do so and him being VP would obviiusly help make it happen. I don't see how that relates to what a farmer decides to farm on property he owns.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 19:35:08 GMT -5
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Post by jjas on Mar 21, 2013 20:44:45 GMT -5
Safari Club web site says they accept free range and "estate" deer. No where on their web site could I find their definition of an estate. Is it any high fence or pen area, a minimum acreage? I have to assume any size "estate" is acceptable to them. Just raise him, shoot him, and we'll score him. I don't believe this is acceptable to the non-hunting public nor the hunting public. If it came to a public vote, I would vote NO and believe most would. Like I said earlier.....I don't see the upside of killing a 25k "checkbook deer" from a preserve but if others want to spend their money that way, more power to 'em....I just don't see any real sense of accomplishment in it......
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Post by daneowner on Mar 21, 2013 20:50:05 GMT -5
I read the article by Craig Boddington and yes he stated that SCI has free range and fenced records because they are a worldwide record keeping system. He also stated that Boone and Crockett has it right in his opinion for only allowing free range amimals, they are a North American record system. He also stated that some fenced operations are essentially fish-in-a-barrell situation and can't imagine any real sportsman confusing those atrocities with genuine hunting. I believe Craig would probably call any fenced area less then 1000's of acreas , a-fish-in-the-barrell hunt. I personally don't see the "infighting amongst our group" What I see is true sportmens tring to keep a "few people" from having deer in a pen.
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Post by GS1 on Mar 21, 2013 20:53:20 GMT -5
The point is that he had the ability to stop hunting/fishing on the ground and did so for a month or so. He did so because he likes animals. The same reason if on the ballot, the pens would lose. Has nothing to do with facts or siding with landowner rights as you claim voters would. It's all emotions.
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Post by dadfsr on Mar 22, 2013 5:41:24 GMT -5
"Fair Chase" sportsmen are obviously in the majority -this thread is evidence of that. Sportsmen are also getting backed into corners everywhere because the majority of them use guns to hunt and gun ownership is obviously being attacked on many fronts right now....with the liberal media swinging public support with biased reporting certainly being responsible for a lot of lost support of gun ownership.
Prudent thinking sportsmen know that they under attack by public support of these attacks against gun ownership. In every fight since mankind has kept records, the "wagons have been circled" and the core values and beliefs have been defended. Those areas in the fringe (unpopular with the majority) have been left outside the circle to fend for themselves and eventually over ran.
The prostitution of canned/high fence hunting IS on the outside of the beliefs of the majority of sportsmen and will be left outside the circle when the fight is back to back....plain and simple.
Blaming everyone else is the looser argument. Family fortunes are probably lost daily due to shifting public opinion and these canned hunting operations will be just another in a long list.
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Post by woodswalker56 on Mar 22, 2013 6:33:27 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 7:20:39 GMT -5
The Russ Bellar events went down in 2004 or so. That video is so old its hard to find on the internet. One has to wonder where were you in 2004-5 when this was a HOT issue to just now be seeing the video clip? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ?? I think that tells the story on how this was not a big deal to most sportsmen and even less to the nonhunting public. Most dint even know it hapened.
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Post by tenring on Mar 22, 2013 8:22:22 GMT -5
Most didn't know about it? Why would the owners of these disease ridden, unethical practice, rule breaking cess pools not keep quiet about what was going on? Bad for the business bottom line if future customers knew the truth. Might as well advertise that if you can't kill one of our fenced in and drugged trophy bucks, we have some girls locked up in a back room. They are full of drugs, so they won't fight back! Hard to find video? Really?
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Post by Woody Williams on Mar 22, 2013 8:38:35 GMT -5
I did not watch it again (too sickening) but that appears to be the full video.. 12 minutes sounds about right.. The wording on that page is old. It is last year that HB1265 went down in flames.. as Long “buried it”. This will be an every year battle as the shooting preserve operators and deer farmers will not give up. For those who were not around, the Bellar operation was held up as a model shooting preserve. The committee of hunting groups, deer farmers, concerned citizens and the DNR toured that facility when they were trying to come up with a compromise. Did any of that portrayed in the video go on at any other deer shooting facility? Who knows? I know one thing for sure - if anyone plunks down a huge chunk of money they expect to go home with a “trophy”. I also know human nature enough to know that the bigger monetary gain a person can make the more chances they will take. The “hunting” aspect aside, my main concern is the disease factor. That is both CWD and Bovine TB. Bovine TB was discovered in 3 cervid farms in 2009 – www.eregulations.com/indiana/hunting/deer-disease-information/Depopulating these farm’s herds are at the taxpayer’s expense, not the farmers. Look to Michigan for their Bovine TB problem www.michigan.gov/emergingdiseases/0,4579,7-186-25804_26354-76512--,00.html CWD – Numerous deer were transported from a Pennsylvania deer farm to an Indiana deer farm that were from a herd where CWD was found. Several of the deer escaped and some have not been found or killed as of today,. They are out there mingling with Indiana’s wild herd. The news report… I do not know of any CWD that just popped up in the wild herd. Just Google Wisconsin and CWD and see what you get.. It is just too BIG of chance to take..
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