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Post by Woody Williams on May 12, 2011 18:55:27 GMT -5
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Post by windingwinds on May 12, 2011 19:21:03 GMT -5
Much ado about antlers..........I do like that it doesn't have drop tines. But as to world record, it's just one man's opinion and all this crap about typical and nontypical is why I will never bother having my bucks "scored". If I get a nice buck, great, if not then wasn't meant to be and I am not going to soil my victory by buying into the scoring systems.
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Post by sleepergsx on May 12, 2011 19:29:28 GMT -5
I remember when this deer was shot. I actually met the guy who shot it and saw the rack at the wisconsin deer classic. according to what I was told, the deer was scored by an official B&C scorer. The gross was in the 220's, however if you look at that photo, the left G2 and G3 are very close together. B&C scored the G2 as the G2, but scored the G3 as an abnormal point because they share a common base, which of course messed up the score of theother tines and caused a lot of deductions. I think it netted 203. The guy then had the rack scored by buckmasters, and they counted the G2 and G3 as seperate points. I beleive this deer is listed as a new world record in buckmasters record books with a score of 199....remember buckmasters score does not include an inside spread measurement, so if you added 21 inches to their score it would be 220. The reason I remember this one is because it disgusted me when I saw all the deductions.....Nets are for fishing! gross score is what a deer is. I hate to see tremendous deer looked over and "shrunk" because of a couple sticker points or having one tine longer than another
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Post by trapperdave on May 12, 2011 20:11:08 GMT -5
I agree, if theyre gonna have record books, score what they grew, period
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2011 20:25:50 GMT -5
B & C (and P & Y) are well accepted as the 'standard' when it comes to scoring systems. Buckmaster is something created to make Bushman rich and doesn't allow for deduction is typical antlers, which is based on the rack being balance side to side. Nobody is required to have their deer scored, and in fact, you have to pay money to do so. So, you should be more than willing to accept the rules in place as what they are. That's why that no B & C scorer will approve of "shopping" for a better score.
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Post by mattfinney on May 13, 2011 7:54:10 GMT -5
I agree, if theyre gonna have record books, score what they grew, period The non-typical category basically does that. I like having a typical category as well. This deer, to me, looks like a typical 6x6, and definitely deserves to go in front of a b&c panel IMO.
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Post by mattfinney on May 13, 2011 19:48:41 GMT -5
What's your take Woody?
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Post by greghopper on May 14, 2011 12:42:32 GMT -5
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Post by throbak on May 14, 2011 15:31:06 GMT -5
I dont think the g-3 is typical eitherthere is no seperation in the two and three
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Post by mattfinney on May 14, 2011 15:57:17 GMT -5
"The interesting fact related to this story is that although the B&C Club points a finger at Duncan Dobie and Deer and Deer Hunting for all the misinformation expelled from their article, they in fact never give names of the so-called four (not including Reneau) who repute the King buck as a typical. Whereas, Duncan (in his D&DH article) gives many names of those respected scorers who do – including one very respected scorer who was on the panel that scored Milo Hanson’s 1993 World Record. He too, called the King buck a typical. As it stands, it looks as if King’s Wisconsin monarch will never see a panel scoring. The most famous G-3 in whitetail scoring history also remains the most controversial. While the Boone & Crockett Club stands by its much anticipated and predictable response, it’s of my own conclusion (Mike Willand) that when a judgment call is this close, like in baseball, tie should go to the runner. As in, give it to the animal that grew it." www.bowhunting.com/publisher/Hunting-News/2011/5/12/BandC-Issues-Response-to-the-Johnny-King-Buck-Tale--Its-NOT-Typical
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Post by whiteoak on May 14, 2011 16:22:12 GMT -5
I wonder how much it cost the guy that bought this rack from King. No doubt this call, whether right or wrong the B&C made, cost him millions. It seems to me if the B&C are going to have the responsibility to determine what is a "World Record" they need to re-evaluate their rules and regulations. This deer sure looks typical to me. I would like to hear the story of the hunt that King made taking this truly amazing deer.
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Post by trapperdave on May 14, 2011 16:40:43 GMT -5
we need a system that uses a water displacement means of measuring. Then and only then would you get the same measurement each and every time regardless of who does it, and a buck gets credit for every bit of antler grown. My .02
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Post by Woody Williams on May 14, 2011 17:15:49 GMT -5
we need a system that uses a water displacement means of measuring. Then and only then would you get the same measurement each and every time regardless of who does it, and a buck gets credit for every bit of antler grown. My .02 There was a system developed by Joe Burket - the Burket method - that measured mass using water displacement. Mass was one of the main criteria in this scoring system. It was not widely accepted & the whole concept died when Joe died.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2011 18:18:17 GMT -5
Water displacement wouldn't account for symetrical racks and side to side comparisons. It would take the place of the Buckmaster scoring system though.
I would guess at some point, this will end up in court and be settled there one way or the other. Right now, with the "no score shopping" rule, it's round one to B & C.
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Post by greghopper on May 14, 2011 18:37:29 GMT -5
"The interesting fact related to this story is that although the B&C Club points a finger at Duncan Dobie and Deer and Deer Hunting for all the misinformation expelled from their article, they in fact never give names of the so-called four (not including Reneau) who repute the King buck as a typical. Whereas, Duncan (in his D&DH article) gives many names of those respected scorers who do – including one very respected scorer who was on the panel that scored Milo Hanson’s 1993 World Record. He too, called the King buck a typical. As it stands, it looks as if King’s Wisconsin monarch will never see a panel scoring. The most famous G-3 in whitetail scoring history also remains the most controversial. While the Boone & Crockett Club stands by its much anticipated and predictable response, it’s of my own conclusion (Mike Willand) that when a judgment call is this close, like in baseball, tie should go to the runner. As in, give it to the animal that grew it." www.bowhunting.com/publisher/Hunting-News/2011/5/12/BandC-Issues-Response-to-the-Johnny-King-Buck-Tale--Its-NOT-TypicalYou missed some facts mattfinney... Boone & Crockett Club quote..... In light of a recent article in Deer and Deer Hunting by Duncan Dobie about Johnny King's typical whitetail deer, the Boone and Crockett Club's Records Committee would like to clarify our position. I would first like to note that it is important to understand that neither Jack Reneau, Director of Big Game Records, nor any member of the committee has a vested interest in the specific score of this or any other trophy, other than to see that it is accurately scored in accordance with the Club's guidelines. The declaration of any new World's Record is a welcomed celebration for the Club, game managers, and dedicated sportsmen.
We are concerned with the misinformation being presented in the article. After speaking with Jack Reneau, I found that he was misinterpreted regarding a possible rule change. What has been printed does not reflect what he was trying to convey. He said with the high and increasing volume of whitetail deer entries, we are seeing abnormalities that are not addressed in the scoring manual. These can present challenges to the Official Measurers. The right G3 on the King buck presents just such an abnormality. This situation came to light under the term of the Club's previous Records Chairman and was written up in the winter issue of “Fair Chase Magazine” in 2000. Reneau was merely pointing out that it is an issue that had not been directly addressed in the Official Measuring manual, but has been the subject of much discussion.
The King buck, while an exceptional specimen, was determined to have an abnormal right G3. This was confirmed, independently, by four highly experienced Boone and Crockett Club Official Measurers. Each of the scorers involved in this examination were senior measurers with both Pope and Young Club and Boone and Crockett Club. They have served on numerous Judges Panels for both organizations. After the four measurers made their determination, the trophy purchaser/promoter questioned the decision. Jack Reneau reviewed the file with other Big Game Records staff and the Records Committee members who also all concurred with the ruling.........
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Post by mbogo on May 15, 2011 11:55:58 GMT -5
Seems that B&C has a lot of trouble with consistency when the tines on this buck and those of the Zaft buck are considered non-typical but the tines on the Curt Van Lith buck are considered typical. scottslifelog.blogspot.com/2006/09/curt-van-lith-buck.htmlThis is not the first dispute between B&C and a deer hunting magazine either. There was quite a bit of controversy over the final score of the "Hole in the Horn" buck when it was panel scored at about 20" less than the entry score submitted by expert scorers. Dick Idol and some contributors to North American Whitetail contended that the score was dropped because the magazine had proclaimed the buck as a new World Record before panel scoring.
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Post by jjas on May 15, 2011 13:03:26 GMT -5
It appears the guy is SOL....For B&C to reverse themselves @ this point undermines their credibility in the public eye, IMHO and I doubt they go that route.
I feel the guys pain though. With all the craziness surrounding bone today, I'm sure that rack would be worth tons of cash.......and that's probably the reason......
A. He (the hunter) is pushing this so hard. B. B&C is reluctant to change their minds. C. Anyone else really cares.......
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Post by Woody Williams on May 15, 2011 13:22:04 GMT -5
It appears the guy is SOL....For B&C to reverse themselves @ this point undermines their credibility in the public eye, IMHO and I doubt they go that route. I feel the guys pain though. With all the craziness surrounding bone today, I'm sure that rack would be worth tons of cash.......and that's probably the reason...... A. He (the hunter) is pushing this so hard. B. B&C is reluctant to change their minds. C. Anyone else really cares....... Agreed.... I don't think that the hunter is pushing it though. The purchaser of the antlers is pushing it..
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Post by Woody Williams on May 15, 2011 13:22:54 GMT -5
Matt, You know I don't care anything about big deer.. .
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Post by trapperdave on May 15, 2011 13:59:19 GMT -5
lol
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