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Post by firstrock on Aug 17, 2006 10:12:50 GMT -5
Spike
Not attacking you, just asking. In your mind, what is the difference between a hunting preserve and canned hunting? I see no difference. Now don't get me wrong, I am against canned hunting, high fence hunting, cervid preserves and the like. My two biggest issues with these facilities is the deer density per acre ratio and the import/ export of a natural resource that could introduce disease into the wild population. I see no wrong in hunting places like Big Oaks where there are thousands of acres for the deer to roam but I do have a problem with someone who has say 100 acres and wants to farm 20, 30 or more deer/ elk.
How much longer before the Coyote preserves, beaver preserves, turkey preserves, rabbit, squirrel, fish and what ever else someone is willing to pay big money for show up? Where will this line of thinking take us? I'm ultimately fearful that the canned hunting industry along with anti-gun/ hunting groups make it so that the only place to hunt will be behind a fence! This may not happen tomorrow but it could one day happen if we open the door to canned hunting here in Indiana.
John
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Post by spike on Aug 17, 2006 10:57:55 GMT -5
Gundude- Education ! Myself and most others are on your list opposed to "canned" hunting. However, most everyone is on the list supporting the high fence hunting preserves. Start with the largest hunting organization in the world. Watch the hunting shows or videos and see who is advertising on these places that are high fence. Anyone who is an outdoorsman concerned and educated about the anti hunting movement protects hunting rights - and yes the hunting rights on preserves as well.
John- As I said before you have to understand what canned hunting is. My belief is that hunting animals that can't escape danger or are not smart enough to escape danger is canned hunting. That means shooting deer under 3 1/2 in the wild is canned hunting. Those deer are simply not smart enough to evade danger and we as sportsmne could shoot them every single time we go hunting. I see no sport or challenge to that and consider it canned hunting. If you could live by that standard I would tear my fence down tomorrow. It won't happen so I have to have a fence to manage the way I see fit. It is not right to force my views upon you and its not right to force your views upon me. A well run preserve does one thing - it prevents the negative effects on a perfect hunting situation. By the way they do hunt Coyotes in enclosures today and they also have pay lakes for fish.
The largest hunting organization in the world and the leading deer biologist in the world support the high fence hunting preserves. The State Board of Animal health has Stated CWD is not an issue from the preserves and when it arrives it will more than likely come from the wild introduction via walking in or being brought in dead in the back of a truck from another state. The sportsmen across the world DEMAND hunting preserves and it is the fastest growing segment of hunting today. When you look at these FACTS you see the opposition has no argument against the preserves. We ALL have an argument against canned hunting. Some people are just jealous that some people can afford to pay to hunt managed lands and they can't. If they truly were hunting for the right reason they would not have to compare themselves to others in hunting to feel they enjoyed it or were successfull. The preserves have absolutely NO effect on traditional sportsmen.
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Post by firstrock on Aug 17, 2006 11:32:48 GMT -5
Spike
Again, not arguing with you, just trying to understand where you are coming from. I understand your argument on preserves but specifically in your mind what is the difference between the two? I mean is there a certain deer density ratio that separates a preserve from a canned facility? Where does a preserve end and a canned facility begin? Is Big Oaks a preserve or a canned facility?
I say again, if you own 100 acres and fence it off, then buy 20 deer for your "preserve" how is that any different than a canned hunting facility? Because all the deer taken on your "preserve" are 3 1/2 years old or older? I really want to understand you guys that support canned hunting/ preserves but I can't grasp how taking a free ranging wild animal and putting it behind a fence where it cannot escape and the chances of a successful kill are increased due to the animals inability to escape the hunter can be considered ethical or hunting.
As far as pay fishing lakes go, you cannot compare the two for the simple fact that just because you pay to fish does not guarantee more or larger fish since the fish still has to bite your bait and can ultimately escape you bait if it so chooses.
Why not take ALL free ranging wildlife and put them behind a fence that cannot be escaped, charge a fee to hunt, and call it hunting? This logic would rid these animals of of disease, poaching, illegal or out of season taking of game and preserve the species for all to enjoy right?
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Post by hoyt1166 on Aug 17, 2006 11:40:26 GMT -5
Spike, I'm not sure that what you say is true. The largest hunting and conservation organizations do not support high fence hunting. Take a look at the organizations that are a part of "Fair Chase". However, just so I know, what are the large hunting organizations that support high fenced hunting? Which organizations lend support to high fenced or entrapped hunting? Do any of these organizations give money to this cause?
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Post by birddog on Aug 17, 2006 11:58:02 GMT -5
If you`re huntin` inside a fence, it ain`t fair chase, and it IS a canned hunt.
These business, and anyone who visit`s them are sleazy.
To the person that wrote the above,Evidentally you never hunted at JPG (Jefferson Proving Grounds).In case you don't know it was over 65,000 acres of high fenced wire as a goverment installation and let me say that there is a huge,huge difference in hunting deer or anything else behind an 8 foot tall fence that runs for miles and miles than there is hunting behind a fence that covers only a few acres,so I really don't think anyone could classify such a hunt as being "sleazy" or it being a "canned hunt"!!!!!! I myself do not believe in "canned hunts" but I have hunted at JPG more times than you could shake a stick and have killed many,many deer out of it and I might say some rather large bucks were taken,so please don't try to even think that hunting a place like JPG was easy and in no means should a hunt in a place the "size" of it be classified as a "canned hunt"!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by dec on Aug 17, 2006 14:07:10 GMT -5
You are merely killing and you are only doing that for bragging rights and to bolster your low self esteem.......... Hey hey hey slow down there Mr. You're not allowed to talk about self esteem or egos on this board. Trust me! I got my knuckles slapped. As for high fenced, I could care less. If it is legal, let the money makers take their fair share from those stupid enough to pay it. If it is illegal, shut them down over time and let the owners out of it. Then put the era behind us. Just don't attack self esteem or any other ego related topics.
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Post by raporter on Aug 17, 2006 14:12:09 GMT -5
When did they start hunting "Wild" deer behind fences? Be carefull there are you trying to put those Amish "Ranchers" out of bussiness?
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Post by birddog on Aug 17, 2006 14:17:23 GMT -5
RAPORTER..... Evidently you never hunted inside the JPG when it was open because the deer there was just as WILD as any other deer.Like I said I DO NOT believe in hunting for "pinned up" deer or anything else but things were quite different at JPG due to the size of the facility.
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Post by gundude on Aug 17, 2006 14:19:57 GMT -5
no attack there Dec. I said it was my opinion. No one should be offened at it unless my opinion happens to be true in their case. NOW since spike has yet to offer up his huge list of sportsmans organization and equipment manufatures that SUPPORT high fence killing, I thought I would once again post a list that supports the " little old ladies" and the Huamne Society. Funny I never knew Remington and others cared so much.lol
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Post by dec on Aug 17, 2006 14:33:15 GMT -5
no attack there Dec. I said it was my opinion. No one should be offened at it unless my opinion happens to be true in there case. I know you were not. My ego comment was an attempt at a joke on recent events/comments on here. While I'm sure a couple did not find it funny, I certainly do. Someone has to play the evil role on here and lately, like it or not, it is me. Good discussion. Amusing to say the least. Like I said, I could care less about high fenced hunting. I did it once for a hog that was causing some problems for the high fenced owner. It cost me next to nothing, it was NOT hunting, it was FUN, it tasted great, and it made a cool mount in my basement. I would do it again if it were free. I think those who pay big bucks are crazy, but who am I to judge. Oh no, I opened myself up again here. I am truly evil among the many. I'm pro-OBR, leasing does not bother me, and I shot a hog at a high fenced operation. I better go out back and string myself up and save the Hunting Indiana lynch mob the effort. I'm so evil. Judge away folks, judge away.
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Post by gundude on Aug 17, 2006 14:34:58 GMT -5
ROFL!!!!!!
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Post by chicobrownbear on Aug 17, 2006 14:54:45 GMT -5
Gundude, I don't think he can argue with that list. I'm all for property rights, but shooting a deer behind a fence it can't get out of is like kicking a quadraplegic in the pills.
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Post by gundude on Aug 17, 2006 15:03:34 GMT -5
Gundude, I don't think he can argue with that list. I'm all for property rights, but shooting a deer behind a fence it can't get out of is like kicking a quadraplegic in the pills. Kinda like going to PUTT-PUTT and claiming to be a golfer.lol See you Saturday!
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Post by spike on Aug 17, 2006 15:05:37 GMT -5
Gundude - Thanks for listing the supporters ! They are very important to our industry. Now all you have to do is educate yourself to realize you proved my point. You really should not try to argue - you only embarrass yourself.
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Post by Chucker on Aug 17, 2006 15:05:46 GMT -5
Thanks Spike for fighting for ALL sportsmens rights!Your right about those who are uneducated are the ones who want to side with HSUS When most get educated they see that banning high fence hunting is just another attack from the antis on all sportsmen,ASo again thanks and keep up the great fight.Chuck
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Post by gundude on Aug 17, 2006 15:16:07 GMT -5
SPIKE,SPIKE,SPIKE<I shake my head>. Perhaps someday you will grow up to be a Forkhorn someday. That list may contain one or twoin it that in some way supports a 20,000 acre ranch somewhere in Texas but many of them don't even support that! None of them support the small little zoos that exist in this state and with the density of animals per acre we are talking about. I know you know this but I give you credit for another attempt to spin this issue. We are covering old ground here and yet you see it as an opportunity to put out false information to those that do not have the facts. I wont sit by and let you get away with that. I failed to mention that EVERY MAJOR SPORTING ORANIZATION of the State of Indiana came out publicly against this. Are they all full of Non-sportsmen and pro HSUS too!
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Post by hoyt1166 on Aug 17, 2006 16:03:52 GMT -5
Gundude, I don't think he can argue with that list. I'm all for property rights, but shooting a deer behind a fence it can't get out of is like kicking a quadraplegic in the pills. Dude, that was funny. I nearly wet myself.
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Post by hunter480 on Aug 17, 2006 17:01:51 GMT -5
If you`re huntin` inside a fence, it ain`t fair chase, and it IS a canned hunt.
These business, and anyone who visit`s them are sleazy.To the person that wrote the above,Evidentally you never hunted at JPG (Jefferson Proving Grounds).In case you don't know it was over 65,000 acres of high fenced wire as a goverment installation and let me say that there is a huge,huge difference in hunting deer or anything else behind an 8 foot tall fence that runs for miles and miles than there is hunting behind a fence that covers only a few acres,so I really don't think anyone could classify such a hunt as being "sleazy" or it being a "canned hunt"!!!!!! I myself do not believe in "canned hunts" but I have hunted at JPG more times than you could shake a stick and have killed many,many deer out of it and I might say some rather large bucks were taken,so please don't try to even think that hunting a place like JPG was easy and in no means should a hunt in a place the "size" of it be classified as a "canned hunt"!!!!!!!!!! That`s your opinion, and you`re certainly entitled to it, however my opinion is exactly as I stated before, if it`s high fence it`s canned and it isn`t hunting. Free ranging means just that-NOT constrained or entrapped. And yes I`ve hunted the proving grounds, many, many years ago. I saw guys shoot from their truck and knock down a deer, run to it and throw it into the truck and speed off. And whoever said that the high fences aren`t to restrict the deer, that`s a hoot. I saw an episode of “Hunting” with Keith Warren on the Outdoor Channel a few seasons back where he tried to explain to all us uneducated viewers that the high fence wasn`t to keep the deer but to keep “inferior” deer out. Could the guy even believe that stuff? And I`ve got a great story I could tell to illustrate the point about hunting in a half acre pen, or a 10,000 acre pen, but I`d get booted. Again, it`s my opinion that fenced “hunts” are cheap thrills that newbie’s or guys who can`t make a kill in the wild have to resort to.
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Post by lugnutz on Aug 17, 2006 18:53:11 GMT -5
I wouldn't pay to go on an Eskimo hunt in Alaska, ok maybe i would But i definitely wouldn't pay to go on a whitetail hunt anywhere in the world, more less paying for a canned hunt on any amount of acreage. But if you want to,,more power to ya! Look in the back of your hunting magazines and see how many places offer canned hunts. If canned hunting is as bad as some say, then why do the people from *Deer and Deer Hunting, and *Peterson's Bowhunting, allow them to purchase space in their magazines. This to me seems that they are supporting the canned hunts that are offered in their magazines.
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Post by spike on Aug 17, 2006 19:48:24 GMT -5
Thanks Chucker- If not for support from all the sportsmen there is no way we could have gotten where we are. It was a great feeling to see 3 out of 4 people in the public meetings were sportsmen and property owners there to protect our rights. It was also funny to see a handfull of uneducated hunters in the old ladies row. Anyway- If our hunting rights and hunting heritage is not worth fighting for then what is !
Gundude- What you forgot to mention was that I personally have had MORE members from the Indiana Sporting groups hunt my place than has ever spoke against us during this entire ordeal. That alone tells you where you stand with your old ladies.
The sooner you accept the fact that sportsmen do and are going to enjoy the hunting opportunities on preserves the sooner you can leave the old ladies row. For now- Sit back and thank the rest of us real sportsmen for protecting your rights as a sportsmen annd landowners, even if you are not smart enough to realize it. You are Welcome !!!
The FACTS that you keep eluding to are what made us sportsmen prevail. On here you can say what you wish and it gets posted. When you discuss this with the people that matter only facts that can be proven are allowed in the discussion. That is why you play on the computer and the rest of us handle things and look out for the sportsmen.
Hunting preserves are for those who wish to participate. If you do not wish to participate then you would never know they existed unless you look at a magazine or watch a hunting show.
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