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Post by firstrock on Aug 16, 2006 9:24:09 GMT -5
While working the Wild Game Cookout at the State Fair this weekend I learned that Canned Hunting is not dead despite what Kyle Hupfer has ruled. I was told that the Govener's Staff is negoitiating a settlement with several Deer Farmers to allow existing operations to stay in business for 10-20 years to recoup their investments in their property. The problem is that as long as Indiana has high fenced hunting in some form or another, the issue will remain alive opening the possibility for future deals/ legislation to legitimize canned hunting. We as spotsmen and women need to put an end to this matter now before it is swept under the rug! Please contact your represenatives and let them know how you feel on this issue and request that a ban on canned hunting be intruduced in the Legislature. Thank you. John Bunner www.indianasmallmouth.com/www.iscconservation.org/ |
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Post by jrbhunter on Aug 16, 2006 9:31:45 GMT -5
I think every legislator and judge in the state is tired of hearing anti's complain about high fence. Anti's have no concrete evidence preserves have any negative impact on the state, no disease threat, NOTHING. Wake up, it's been to court a dozen times... it's been to legislature... your side came up short.
There are many officials across the state very upset with deer hunting representation (IDHA & IBA) because they took their word that they "HAD A CASE" only to find out otherwise. There is no case against these operations, only emotional outburst and loosely based arguments. When one takes the time to inform themselves of the facts they will see why the state has made the decisions it has... any logical person would decide the same thing. I'm not saying you guys aren't logical, I'm saying you aren't informed.
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Post by hoyt1166 on Aug 16, 2006 9:46:18 GMT -5
I'm not saying you guys aren't logical, I'm saying you aren't informed. As opposed to being financially invested? |
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Post by jrbhunter on Aug 16, 2006 9:53:33 GMT -5
Well, I'm in no way financially invested if that's what you're asking. I spent $0.00 and made $0.00 off of hunting preserves last year and have never harvested an animal behind a fence... I'm simply informed.
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Post by firstrock on Aug 16, 2006 10:02:23 GMT -5
jrbhunter I am informed on this issue. This post is not a knee jerk reaction! I have video evidence from Russ Beller's trial that shows that fenced hunting is un-ethical and dangerous to the wild deer population here in Indiana. Take a look at the statistics for Michigan regarding their canned hunting practices. 37% non-compliance with the DNR's rules governing captive Cervid operations. So if just one of the "farms" have CWD and they are not following the rules, then what happens when just one of those infected deer escape? 100,000,000 was spent last year by Michigan combating CWD and enforcing the law just for canned hunting preserves. Who do you think pays the bill for this kind of law/ disease enforcement? That's right, the sportsmen and tax payers do! Bottom line is that there is no good side to canned hunting, period! Just a bunch of greedy "hunters" out to make a quick buck off the natural resources of the state! www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153--112582--,00.html |
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Post by jrbhunter on Aug 16, 2006 10:31:06 GMT -5
My point exactly, you are MISinformed. You folks type a good game online but that stuff turns out to be loosely based, half true and doesn't hold up in a court of law. The IDNR lost their suit because of baseless BS like that. The Indiana Board of Health has testified in favor of hunting preserves... but I'm sure you were there to see that? Hunters spoke out in masses to support hunting preserves in public input meetings... but I'm sure you were there to see that? You talk about taxes but preserves pay more than you do... you talk about law violations but free ranging hunters violate many many more. You talk about CWD scares but Indiana doesn't have it. You pick Russ Bellar out of the mix and claim he is an example of EVERY preserve... seriously people, you must understand why no one takes you seriously? The fact is you anti-fence folks have exhausted every resource you have... they are tired of hearing your cries... you've been asked to show something other than emotion and jealousy and you haven't. First you wanted public input, then you wanted legislation... then public input again... then back to the IDNR Director. The game has been played, deal with the scoreboard. I'll sit here now and wait patiently. I have a feeling it's going to get interesting soon-  |
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Post by drs on Aug 16, 2006 10:36:03 GMT -5
I couldn't have said it better!!!
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Post by cedararrow on Aug 16, 2006 10:41:46 GMT -5
JRB
You are correct Indiana does not have a reported case of CWD in it. However where do the deer behind these fences come from? I understand there are super restrictions and other tests that must be completed before an animal can be transported across state lines; however what if those dont get followed? What if that little law just kind of gets skipped because a big name client with lots of money wants to shoot a big one? The guy doesnt have the caliber of deer this guy wants so he goes out and buys one from another operator of his own ethical status... It is easy to see how this disease could be spread. Im not gonna pretend to know everything there is to know about this topic and maybe I am one of the uninformed guys in this state, but the fact is that canned hunting is a black mark on an already damaged image of american sportsman. Ultimately the undecided are the ones that decide our future... Do you want them turning to penned operations in search of forming opinions about hunting? Just a thought take it or leave it. I for one dont want to be associated with these operations at all. Simply because they have camoflauge on and I do too, I become one of them in the "uninformed" public eye. You do too sir, is that who you want to be stereotyped with? I for one dont want to be and Im sure there are hundreds more on this sight that wouldnt want to be either. The only way to eliminate a cancer is to cut it out... thats what needs to be done in this case.
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Post by firstrock on Aug 16, 2006 11:02:11 GMT -5
My point exactly, you are MISinformed. You folks type a good game online but that stuff turns out to be loosely based, half true and doesn't hold up in a court of law. The IDNR lost their suit because of baseless BS like that. The Indiana Board of Health has testified in favor of hunting preserves... but I'm sure you were there to see that? Hunters spoke out in masses to support hunting preserves in public input meetings... but I'm sure you were there to see that? You talk about taxes but preserves pay more than you do... you talk about law violations but free ranging hunters violate many many more. You talk about CWD scares but Indiana doesn't have it. You pick Russ Bellar out of the mix and claim he is an example of EVERY preserve... seriously people, you must understand why no one takes you seriously? The fact is you anti-fence folks have exhausted every resource you have... they are tired of hearing your cries... you've been asked to show something other than emotion and jealousy and you haven't. First you wanted public input, then you wanted legislation... then public input again... then back to the IDNR Director. The game has been played, deal with the scoreboard. I'll sit here now and wait patiently. I have a feeling it's going to get interesting soon- Well, the DNR lost it's suit due to a letter written in 1999 to Whitetail Bluff. The letter said that as of the date on the letter, there was no regulations covering canned hunting and that it may become illegal in the future. This letter is the only thing keeping canned hunting alive in Indiana! As far as me not having my facts straigh, I am certain I have the truthful and correct information on this topic! I can quote, link, e-mail, or snail mail you or anyone else just about any public info on this issue! I really wonder why you are defending Russ Bellar. I have seen with my own eyes what he and his co-defendant's did on that property and it amounts to a travisty! Also, just before Bellar's place was raided in Jan. 05, the captive cervid industry held Bellar's place up as the standard by which all other cervid hunting preserves should strive to attain! Why is this? Because these are greedy people who have no respect for natrual, free ranging deer here in Indiana or anywhere else! jrbhunter, you obviously are on Bellar's side and thats fine. Mark my words, "Canned hunting in Indiana will not be sucessful outside of any settlement the Govener agrees to with the operations currently in existiance!" |
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Post by firstrock on Aug 16, 2006 11:06:54 GMT -5
jrbhunter
Allmost forgot. So since you support Bellar, then you also support the drugging of deer to be shot? Do you support herding deer in to small 3 acre pens and having people walk around to move the deer towards the hunter with NO chance for escape? Do you support propping up dying or drugged deer against a thickect to STAGE the taking of a WILD deer?
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Post by semisneak on Aug 16, 2006 11:50:04 GMT -5
I believe jrb hunter was saying that russ beller was not an example of all operations. Therefore I believe he is not on Russ Bellers side or supports his actions.
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Post by jrbhunter on Aug 16, 2006 12:05:19 GMT -5
Firstrock, what are you reading? Where do I support Bellar's actions... nowhere. No I don't condone that, nobody does, just like no one condones poaching on the outside of a fence. You are grasping at straws to gain the illusion of an argument, stick to the facts!! I know Russ but I don't support what he did or how he did it... it's disgusting at best and I think he learned his lesson.
You needn't mail me anything, I was there. Unlike you, I don't have to take the word of internet guru's about what happened at these meetings and hearings... and believe me, your view is skewed signifigantly from the facts. The letter to whitetail bluff was just another nail in the coffin, the IDNR had not ONE leg to stand on during that case. They lost on all fronts... animal health, public input, legal ramifications, exisiting guidelines and free enterprise. They came away with their tail between their legs... not one minor victory came from that case. Make no mistake- they lost big and Kyle got his neck wrung for it.
Cedararrow, I do not believe the public sees preserve hunting in the light you do. They see it all day on the Outdoor Channel and Mens Channel... animals being shot by hunters- what is so bad about that? The ones that probably have the most impact on non-hunters are free ranging hunts like Hippo & Elephant and Turkeys getting their heads whacked off by Guilletienes. The Bellar cases are a one in a million and EVERYONE understands that... even the most rabid anti's know deep down that it's not typical behavior. It couldn't be or the industry wouldn't survive. It's a good theory to run with if you want to push an anti-preserve agenda but the logical world understands there are bad apples in every industry.
I work very hard at hunting free-ranging animals all across this country. I know many folks in the business of hunting that DO hunt preserves.... I consider many of those guys my friends. Many of them are just as adequate in the field as I am, but they choose to hunt preserves. Each of us have the decision to make, do we participate in preserve hunting or not... I choose not... but then again I don't go to Casinos, Golf Courses or the Movie Theatre. Anything can be percieved as negative by the right people in the right setting... but rallying the troops to abolish each practice we don't "Agree with" or can't afford is just plain wrong. I hold no ill feelings towards those who disagree with preserves, disagree with the OBR or support crossbows... I'm right there with you in some capacity... it's just to what extreme you project your opinions that bothers me.
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 16, 2006 12:21:42 GMT -5
Just keep above board guys..
No low punches..
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Post by firstrock on Aug 16, 2006 12:24:38 GMT -5
I am not an extremeist, I just think Fair Chase trumps the so called rights of anyone to pen up wild animals and call it "Hunting". If it were not for the real threat that CDW imposes on wild cervid populations, I would ALLMOST go along with the whole canned hunting issue. As far as me not being there, you're sadly mistaking! I was at the public input forum at Madison as well as Ft. Ben. Harrison. I also took a little drive up to Bellar's place and saw what was going on with my own eyes! Along with monitoring the numerous court cases I feel that I am more than qualified to speak on this issue!
As far as Bellar being a bad apple, why then did the whole industry of canned hunting hold Bellar's place up with such high reguard?? Did they not know what he was doing? They did, as evidenced in court testimony and video evidence! Well, looks like I just put to rest your "Facts" as you call them. Squabbling with you any more on this isssue is a waste of my time. You will believe what you want no matter what evidence is presented to you, so, good day!
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Post by jrbhunter on Aug 16, 2006 12:40:01 GMT -5
Again you play loose with the facts.... wild animals? That's a federal violation in itself, call the warden boys!!! I sat behind you in Madison, I know this because as you will recall there were only three in opposition. I'm suprised at you, changing screen names to hide the shame.
PS: The anti-preserve folks took a big hit with guys like you as representation for them at the meetings... it was studdering and stammering with half-baked inconsistancies that sealed the deal in the long run.
Woody- I meant legistlation... not the discussion we're having here. We're all adults.
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Post by firstrock on Aug 16, 2006 12:53:07 GMT -5
No screen name changes here, bud. This is the first time I have registered here! Ask the Admin's, they have my IP address!
By the way, any chance you work for the Democratic Party??? If not, you should!
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Post by jkd on Aug 16, 2006 12:54:05 GMT -5
JRB: Get your facts straight... 1 - During the past Indiana two legislative sessions, it was a bill that would have legalized canned hunting (2005 session) and an amendment to an Ag funding bill to modify existing GBL regs (2006 session) which would have allowed existing high fence ops to continue and also provide for financial compensation if they were closed.... those BOTH FAILED TO PASS through the Senate, and died... so it was the canned hunting lobbyists and Reps Friend, Ruppel et al that came up short... BTW, I was there for hearings and watched others live via the internet feed from the House and Senate... 2 - The Rodney Bruce lawsuit, is to my knowledge, still pending. The injunction and stay issued by the local circuit court judge dealt ONLY WITH RODNEY'S OPERATION, and did not extend protection to any other high fence op in Indiana. This would have taken movement by Mr. Bruce and others to establish a class action extension of the original pleadings, which they have not done. Furthermore, it only allows Rodney to continue his operation until such time as the matter comes to trial or is settled. I have no idea what you're talking about this issue having been in the courts "dozens of times"...  ?? What Indiana case citations do you have to back that up? 3 - The decision to issue an emergency rule last year banning canned hunting of deer and exotics was made by IDNR Director Hupfer, F&W and the IDNR legal department, and although they did get input at multiple public hearings on the matter, it was not the IBA, IDHA or any other hunter/sportsmen group that convinced them they "had a case"... 4 - The CWD threat is real, and data on non-compliance by high fence ops in Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota is a matter of public record and available on their respective DNR websites, so don't even try arguing your boys are all following the rules because the FACT is they are not. Funny how since many states have banned inter-state transport/import of farm deer, the rapid spread of CWD seen during the past several years to eastern and midwest areas has slowed dramatically. |
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Post by cedararrow on Aug 16, 2006 12:56:47 GMT -5
Ever since we were kids in school we were always told that a few bad apples ruin it for everyone. Regardless if the society we live in sees people hunting in pens on TV shows... those are portrayed as free ranging. I dont agree with it at all as most dont, a pen is a pen, but the shows are portraying them so the public undiscerning eye doesnt see it that way. There is no hiding bellars place at all there is no hiding the video of that deer walking up to the shooting house... ears falling down like a basset hound. Barely able to walk straight and having a hard time keeping his head up. Then staring a shotgun right in face and getting blasted from point blank range. There is no hiding Jimmy Houston shooting at deer as the compound's "guides" chase the deer back and forth for him. There is no hiding that once its been revealed. That bad apple was the only apple hanging in the tree last year and a huge portion of the public got a really good look at just how rotten it was. Now they are looking at all the apples a little closer.
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Post by cedararrow on Aug 16, 2006 13:00:14 GMT -5
I dont want the public cutting down the tree because they think all apples are going to turn out rotten this year or in future years to come.
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Post by jkd on Aug 16, 2006 13:06:10 GMT -5
Cedar... as a conservative democrat, please don't stick us with JRB... LOL!!!!
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?? What Indiana case citations do you have to back that up?