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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 10, 2006 18:02:53 GMT -5
NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MEETING Atterbury Fish and Wildlife Area Office 7970 South Rowe Street Edinburgh, Indiana July 18, 2006 1:00 P.M., EDT (12:00 Noon, CDT) A G E N D Awww.in.gov/nrc/minutes/current_agenda/www.in.gov/nrc/minutes/current_agenda/Item_4.docRequest for preliminary adoption of amendments to 312 IAC 9. Includes amended sections pertaining to the following: hunting deer by firearms; hunting deer by bow and arrows; endangered species of mammals; migratory birds and waterfowl; endangered species of reptiles and amphibians; endangered species of birds; endangered species of fish and endangered species of invertebrates. Below is a summary of the rule proposals: 1. Clarifies the license requirements for hunting deer in the firearms and muzzleloader seasons to state that a firearms license is required in the firearms season and a muzzleloader license is required to hunt deer with a muzzleloader in the muzzleloader season. The changes also list the youth license and lifetime license that can be used to take deer during these seasons. The other proposed modification would allow rifles with only pistol cartridges to be used when hunting deer during the firearms season. Over the years, the DNR has received many emails and letters from hunters proposing a rule that would allow the use of rifles chambered for pistol cartridges for deer hunting. The language in the attached allows the use of rifles and limits cartridge dimensions to those common to pistol rounds, maintaining the DNR's long-time position of allowing only short to medium range equipment for taking deer. The DNR is proposing this rule modification in order to obtain public comment on this issue.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 10, 2006 18:11:35 GMT -5
The changes...
SECTION 1. 312 IAC 9-3-3 IS AMENDED TO READ AS FOLLOWS:
312 IAC 9-3-3 Hunting deer by firearms Authority: IC 14-22-2-6 Affected: IC 14-22-11-1; IC 14-22-12-1; IC 35-47-2
Sec. 3. (a) This section is supplemental to section 2 of this rule and governs the activities of an individual who is either: (1) issued a license to hunt deer by firearms under IC 14-22-12-1(a) (12), IC 14-22-12-1(13) , or IC 14-22-12-1(a) (15), or IC 14-22-12-1(16) during the season established in subsection (b); or (2) issued a license to hunt deer by a muzzle loading gun or muzzle loading handgun under IC 14-22-12-1(a)(13) or IC 14-22-12-1(a)(16) during the season established in subsection (c); or (3) issued a lifetime license under IC 14-22-12-7 prior to July 1, 2005 during the seasons established in 312 IAC 9-3-3(b) and (c); or (4) issued a youth yearly consolidated hunting license under IC 14-22-12-1(a)(24); or
(2) (5) hunting by the use of firearms under IC 14-22-11-1.
(b) The season for hunting deer with firearms is as follows: (1) The firearms season using: (A) shotgun; (B) shotgun with rifled barrel; (C) handgun; (D) muzzle loading gun; or (E) muzzle loading handgun; or (F) rifle, with the use of cartridges described in subsection (f) (4) only; is from the first Saturday after November 11 and continues for an additional fifteen (15) days. (2) The seasonal limit for hunting deer under this subsection is one (1) antlered deer.
(c) In addition to the season established under subsection (b), the season for using a muzzle loading gun or muzzle loading handgun only: (1) extends from the first Saturday after the firearms season established under subsection (b); and (2) continues for fifteen (15) additional days. The seasonal limit for hunting deer under this extended season is one (1) deer of either sex.
(d) A person must not hunt deer except from one-half (½) hour before sunrise to one-half (½) hour after sunset. (e) A person must not do the following: (1) Hunt deer unless that person wears hunter orange. (2) Possess bow and arrows while hunting under this section. (f) The following requirements apply to the use of firearms under this section: (1) A shotgun: (A) must have a gauge 10, 12, 16, 20, or .410 bore loaded with a single projectile; and (B) may be possessed in the field outside lawful shooting hours only if there are no shells in the chamber or magazine. (2) A handgun must: (A) conform to the requirements of IC 35-47-2; (B) have a barrel at least four (4) inches long; and (C) fire a bullet of two hundred forty-three thousandths (.243) inch diameter or larger. All 38 special ammunition is prohibited. The handgun cartridge case, without bullet, must be at least one and sixteen-hundredths (1.16) inches long. A handgun must not be concealed. Full metal jacketed bullets are unlawful. A handgun may be possessed in the field outside lawful shooting hours only if there are no shells in the chamber or magazine. All 25/20, 32/20, 30 carbine, and 38 special ammunition is prohibited. (3) A muzzle loading gun must be .44 caliber or larger, loaded with a bullet at least three hundred fifty-seven thousandths (.357) inch or larger. A muzzle loading handgun must be single shot, .50 caliber or larger, loaded with bullets at least .44 caliber and have a barrel at least twelve (12) inches long. The length of a muzzle loading handgun barrel is determined by measuring from the base of the breech plug, excluding tangs and other projections, to the end of the barrel, including the muzzle crown. A muzzle loading gun must be capable of being loaded only from the muzzle, including both powder and bullet. A muzzle loading gun may be possessed in the field outside lawful shooting hours only if: (A) for percussion firearms, the cap or primer is removed from the nipple or primer adapter; or (B) for flintlock firearms, the pan is not primed. (4) A rifle must: (A) fire a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357) diameter or larger; (B) have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and (C) have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches.
(4) (5) Over-and-under combination rifle-shotguns are prohibited. (Natural Resources Commission; 312 IAC 9-3-3; filed May 12, 1997, 10:00 a.m.: 20 IR 2703; filed Nov 13, 1997, 12:09 p.m.: 21 IR 1272; filed Dec 26, 2001, 2:40 p.m.: 25 IR 1530; readopted filed Jul 28, 2003, 12:00 p.m.: 27 IR 286; filed Sep 23, 2004, 3:00 p.m.: 28 IR 538)
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 10, 2006 18:19:37 GMT -5
You may make your feelings known on this subject or any of the other poposals by emailing the Natural Resources Commission at.. www.in.gov/nrc/contact/
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Post by danf on Jul 10, 2006 21:06:46 GMT -5
Anyone know what kind of timetable we are looking at should this pass? Effective for the 2007 season or ?
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 10, 2006 21:12:04 GMT -5
Anyone know what kind of timetable we are looking at should this pass? Effective for the 2007 season or ? It wont be this year. Probably 2007 season IF it passes. The IDNR and the NRC wants to hear from us.. .
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Post by drs on Jul 11, 2006 7:17:45 GMT -5
You may make your feelings known on this subject or any of the other poposals by emailing the Natural Resources Commission at.. www.in.gov/nrc/contact/Thanks, for the info. & update, Woody. I just got through e-mailing the NRC; below is my letter: Dear Sirs:
I am writting the NRC to voice my support to allow the use of low-powered pistol cartridges in rifles, for Deer Hunting in the State of Indiana. These short ranged cartridges like the .44 Magnum or .45 Long Colt have similar ballistics as the saboted shotgun loads and the same as Muzzle Loaders using pistol jacketed bullets in a sabot. Thank you for allowing my comment on this issue.
Sincerely,
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Post by DEERTRACKS on Jul 11, 2006 8:08:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the info Woody. My email is on it's way.
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Post by mbogo on Jul 11, 2006 8:18:02 GMT -5
I already sent my email in support. Thanks for the heads up Woody.
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Post by hunter7x on Jul 11, 2006 8:20:52 GMT -5
Mine too....no thanks on rifles.
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Post by buckskiner on Jul 11, 2006 9:32:42 GMT -5
Hi Woody; awile back on the conservatoin officer page i asked if the 45-70 was a legel hand gun round and he said it was,so do you think it would be included in rifle ammo.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 11, 2006 9:42:13 GMT -5
Hi Woody; awile back on the conservatoin officer page i asked if the 45-70 was a legel hand gun round and he said it was,so do you think it would be included in rifle ammo. I don't think it will meet the - "have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches" criteria. I think the 45-70 is over two inches long?? BUT, I wil defer to our resident pistol cartridge experts.
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Post by drs on Jul 11, 2006 9:46:27 GMT -5
Hi Woody; awile back on the conservatoin officer page i asked if the 45-70 was a legel hand gun round and he said it was,so do you think it would be included in rifle ammo. I am sorry but the .45-70, being bassically a RIFLE cartridge, would not be legal. The proposal is for PISTOL cartridges like the .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Mag, 45 LC, and .454 Casull. I am sure other "Pistol stright-walled cartridges" will be allowed if they meet the criteria.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 11, 2006 9:51:36 GMT -5
It is important to note that not all cartridges that are presently in use in handguns in Indiana for deer hunting would be legal in the "pistol cartridge rifles".
It appears that the IDNR has set some pretty good and strict rules on that.
(4) A rifle must: (A) fire a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357) diameter or larger; (B) have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and (C) have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches.
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Post by drs on Jul 11, 2006 10:21:12 GMT -5
It is important to note that not all cartridges that are presently in use in handguns in Indiana for deer hunting would be legal in the "pistol cartridge rifles". It appears that the IDNR has set some pretty good and strict rules on that. (4) A rifle must: (A) fire a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357) diameter or larger;(B) have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and(C) have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches.These are good rules too, which shows lots of thought went into determining what is suitable, if it meets the critera.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 11, 2006 10:24:42 GMT -5
It is important to note that not all cartridges that are presently in use in handguns in Indiana for deer hunting would be legal in the "pistol cartridge rifles". It appears that the IDNR has set some pretty good and strict rules on that. (4) A rifle must: (A) fire a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357) diameter or larger;(B) have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and(C) have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches.These are good rules too, which shows lots of thought went into determining what is suitable, if it meets the critera. Enforcable too. All a CO needs is a ruler. .
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Post by drs on Jul 11, 2006 12:48:29 GMT -5
That's right!
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Post by dbd870 on Jul 11, 2006 15:35:19 GMT -5
Message sent.
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Post by jajwrigh on Jul 11, 2006 16:41:14 GMT -5
Below is what I wrote:
To whom it may concern,
As a sportsman and a deer hunter, I would like to see the use of pistol caliber rifles, legal for deer hunting. They offer no advantage in hunting range when compared to our shotguns or muzzleloaders and the extra choice of weapon might bring more hunters afield. This is another necessary step in controlling our state's growing deer herd. Thank you for your time and consideration.
Jason Wright
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Post by squirrelhunter on Jul 11, 2006 17:46:08 GMT -5
E-mail sent.
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Post by ihunt2liv on Jul 12, 2006 0:19:17 GMT -5
Hello, I have posted on this topic before. It may not have been on this board, I can't recall. I have also voiced my opinion every year to the IDNR about the rifle/shotgun issue. Here are the facts. I have generalized the ballistics for time sake not changed them for arguement. I took the top of the line cartidges and slug ballistics from Federal,Remington,and Winchester. I looked at the .44 mag, 45/70, .410 and 12 guage. I believe these are popular cartridges that a variety of firearms are chambered in with the .410 as an exception but still legal. Bear with me here.
.44 mag....240gr...1760mv.....-17.1" at 200yds 45/70........300gr...1810mv.....-13.8" at 200yds .410..........1/4oz....1800mv.....-19.3 at 200yds 12ga.........385gr....1900mv.....-13.7 at 200yds
These tables were premo ammo zeroed at 100yds. As you can see we already have long guns and pistols chambered in cartridges equal and sometimes greater in velocity and trajectory as the guns that are currently illegal. In my opinion the .410 really opened the door on this debate again. When you get down to it the .410 is really just an inaccurate 30/30 in a ballistics standpoint. Also, I wouldn't keep reminding the state that alot of modern muzzleloaders that are available can exceed most shotguns and some rifles in ballistics and trajectory. These "moderns" have been outlawed in several other states for just that reason. It will be interesting to see what the state does. I'm not holding my breath when you look at how other things progress in Indiana. Thank you and looking forward to comments.
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