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Post by boonechaser on Nov 29, 2021 13:15:21 GMT -5
I'd like to add my thoughts as I am just now seeing this discussion for the first time. 1. Someone posted earlier in the thread that less and less people are hunting each year. I have heard this before and I do not know if this is true or not. Maybe someone can give me the statistics for Indiana that back this up. Personally, I have seen the number of people hunting going up drastically in my area. That could just be annecdotal to my area though. Just looking for the actual stats on this. 2. I think that the governing authorities that set our deer regulations get quite a bit right, but still have a decent amount that they get wrong. The way public land properties are managed is absolutely abysmal, at least in my area. Rules are not enforced even when provided with license plate numbers, pictures, etc. of people breaking said rules. The more people see rules being broken, the more likely more people are to break rules and then you end up with a property/deer herd being destroyed because there is no rule of law on the property. This has exponentially gotten worse over the last 3 years. 3. Before I say this I have to post this disclaimer: I have absolutely no issue with crossbows. I even have one due to an injury one year that caused me to not be able to use a vertical bow. That being said, a vertical bow and a crossbow are not the same thing and I wonder if some thought should be put to regulating them differently. Now, to give context, from late winter/early spring (typically March), I am shooting my bow 60-80 arrows each session 2-3 days a week. I practice out to 80 yards and would take a shot at a deer out to 50. I have killed a deer at 51 yards with my vertical bow. I know that the majority of people using a vertical bow do not do anywhere near this much shooting, but this plays into my thoughts on this. The problem of weapon proficiency is not witht his weapon; it is with the person using the weapon. I think this statement rings true: a properly-sighted in gun is easier to shoot with less practice than a properly-sighted crossbow out to farther distances. A properly-sighted crossbow is DRASTICALLY easier to shoot profficiently than a vertical bow, especially out to further distances. And when you start talking about trad bows (recurve and longbow) things get exponentially harder as well. A vertical bow and a crossbow are not the same as far as ease of use. That being said, the bigger issue is that people don't take the time to become profficient with the weapon they decide to use across ALL WEAPON TYPES. QDMA does a annual study on hunter recruitment and if memory serves trend has been downward for last several years depending on states ranging from -20% to -3% annually. The blame from what I read was in the Baby Boomer generation not getting involved in hunting. I am sure there are hunter participation numbers in the annual Indiana deer report. I would 100% agree Indiana does a very poor job of managing it's public lands.
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Post by greghopper on Nov 29, 2021 13:31:44 GMT -5
Less then 10% of annual Deer Harvest come from public land!
Almost bet 50% success rate doesn’t happen at any one property… probably 25% or less IMO
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Post by tynimiller on Nov 29, 2021 14:01:12 GMT -5
I'd venture to bet domesticated dogs have killed more deer in a year than bobcats. We don't always agree or see eye to eye but I'd imagine you are correct. I'd wager that a single family of coons or possums will kill more turkeys in one year than all cats in Indiana combined for same year. You are one of many that no matter whether I agree or disagree with I hold in high regard and with nothing but respect, know that.
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Post by sculver7 on Nov 29, 2021 14:41:59 GMT -5
I'd like to add my thoughts as I am just now seeing this discussion for the first time. 1. Someone posted earlier in the thread that less and less people are hunting each year. I have heard this before and I do not know if this is true or not. Maybe someone can give me the statistics for Indiana that back this up. Personally, I have seen the number of people hunting going up drastically in my area. That could just be annecdotal to my area though. Just looking for the actual stats on this. 2. I think that the governing authorities that set our deer regulations get quite a bit right, but still have a decent amount that they get wrong. The way public land properties are managed is absolutely abysmal, at least in my area. Rules are not enforced even when provided with license plate numbers, pictures, etc. of people breaking said rules. The more people see rules being broken, the more likely more people are to break rules and then you end up with a property/deer herd being destroyed because there is no rule of law on the property. This has exponentially gotten worse over the last 3 years. 3. Before I say this I have to post this disclaimer: I have absolutely no issue with crossbows. I even have one due to an injury one year that caused me to not be able to use a vertical bow. That being said, a vertical bow and a crossbow are not the same thing and I wonder if some thought should be put to regulating them differently. Now, to give context, from late winter/early spring (typically March), I am shooting my bow 60-80 arrows each session 2-3 days a week. I practice out to 80 yards and would take a shot at a deer out to 50. I have killed a deer at 51 yards with my vertical bow. I know that the majority of people using a vertical bow do not do anywhere near this much shooting, but this plays into my thoughts on this. The problem of weapon proficiency is not witht his weapon; it is with the person using the weapon. I think this statement rings true: a properly-sighted in gun is easier to shoot with less practice than a properly-sighted crossbow out to farther distances. A properly-sighted crossbow is DRASTICALLY easier to shoot profficiently than a vertical bow, especially out to further distances. And when you start talking about trad bows (recurve and longbow) things get exponentially harder as well. A vertical bow and a crossbow are not the same as far as ease of use. That being said, the bigger issue is that people don't take the time to become profficient with the weapon they decide to use across ALL WEAPON TYPES. QDMA does a annual study on hunter recruitment and if memory serves trend has been downward for last several years depending on states ranging from -20% to -3% annually. The blame from what I read was in the Baby Boomer generation not getting involved in hunting. I am sure there are hunter participation numbers in the annual Indiana deer report. I would 100% agree Indiana does a very poor job of managing it's public lands. That would make sense with the baby boomers getting out of it. I just know that around here, numbers appear to be increasing. For instance, there is a public land piece that is south of where I live that I hunt frequently. 3 years ago, the property would average somewhere between 25-40 hunters per day during archery season. 2 years ago, that number raised to averaging somewhere in the range of 60-80 a day. I thought that maybe it was due to people being off due to covid and having extra time to hunt. However, this year, the average was roughly the same as last. I know this is a very narrow view of a grand-scheme idealogy, but at least where I'm at, the numbers seem to be higher than I've ever experienced.
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Post by MuzzleLoader on Nov 29, 2021 14:48:40 GMT -5
I can tell you after 28 yrs in government work. You give or let them take something back. You’ll never see it again. Be careful what is wished for.
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Post by firstwd on Nov 29, 2021 15:21:39 GMT -5
QDMA does a annual study on hunter recruitment and if memory serves trend has been downward for last several years depending on states ranging from -20% to -3% annually. The blame from what I read was in the Baby Boomer generation not getting involved in hunting. I am sure there are hunter participation numbers in the annual Indiana deer report. I would 100% agree Indiana does a very poor job of managing it's public lands. That would make sense with the baby boomers getting out of it. I just know that around here, numbers appear to be increasing. For instance, there is a public land piece that is south of where I live that I hunt frequently. 3 years ago, the property would average somewhere between 25-40 hunters per day during archery season. 2 years ago, that number raised to averaging somewhere in the range of 60-80 a day. I thought that maybe it was due to people being off due to covid and having extra time to hunt. However, this year, the average was roughly the same as last. I know this is a very narrow view of a grand-scheme idealogy, but at least where I'm at, the numbers seem to be higher than I've ever experienced. I feel this is a reason so many people hate having crossbows in early archery.
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Post by tynimiller on Nov 29, 2021 15:30:25 GMT -5
Archery seasons being hunted is increasing 100% due to crossbow usage exploding. This isn't me stating that as a negative or positive, just a fact. I know numerous gun folks that now are grabbing crossbows due to how they're essentially a gun which instead of powder uses a loaded/cocked string and instead of a bullet a bolt - I know a VERY boiled down short way of describing it - not a true one to one comparison but the ease of use is quite similar and makes it easy.
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Post by jjas on Nov 29, 2021 15:33:11 GMT -5
muzzleloader
I agree with the above 100%.
A couple of observations/points...
esshup
Maybe I'm missing something but doesn't firearm and muzzleloader season run concurrently with the archery season now?
Finally
I think many posts in this thread are really thinly veiled attempts for some to complain about certain types of equipment that they don't want hunters to be able to use because they never have agreed with their legalization.
This has been going on for years and it'll never end.
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Post by tynimiller on Nov 29, 2021 15:42:38 GMT -5
Everytime someone says we need to remove crossbows from archery I quickly follow and compounds...just longbows and recurves....and smile because while I'd be willing to switch to it, I know most wouldn't LOL
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Post by sculver7 on Nov 29, 2021 16:01:59 GMT -5
Everytime someone says we need to remove crossbows from archery I quickly follow and compounds...just longbows and recurves....and smile because while I'd be willing to switch to it, I know most wouldn't LOL Exactly. It's all about where someone personally draws the line as to what is fair chase given a particular season, weapon type, etc.
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Post by jjas on Nov 29, 2021 16:02:29 GMT -5
Everytime someone says we need to remove crossbows from archery I quickly follow and compounds...just longbows and recurves....and smile because while I'd be willing to switch to it, I know most wouldn't LOL If we didn't have other choices, most would go back to longbows or recurves (if they physically could). Just like we would go back to smooth bore slug guns and traditional muzzleloaders if there were no other choices. But that isn't the case. We don't have to use them, and like it or not, technology will continue to change hunting. IMO, one upside to that is that it helps keep hunters in the field longer and I think that's a good thing.
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Post by jimbob on Nov 29, 2021 16:35:11 GMT -5
My point is that the hunting and fishing industry keeps giving us (outdoorsmen) an advantage year in and year out… crossbows are like fish finders. LiveScope/multi shot crossbow… what is next. The only thing we can hope is the deer get nocturnal faster due to human scent levels elevated, continue to become cam shy, and fish get sonar bing sensitive. The sense of entitlement spans across all things in life… so I don’t expect hunters and anglers to ever say enough is enough… just hope for 6 shooter crossbows and sunglasses that put red dot where the fish is in the water.
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Post by Woody Williams on Nov 29, 2021 16:45:09 GMT -5
Archery seasons being hunted is increasing 100% due to crossbow usage exploding. This isn't me stating that as a negative or positive, just a fact. I know numerous gun folks that now are grabbing crossbows due to how they're essentially a gun which instead of powder uses a loaded/cocked string and instead of a bullet a bolt - I know a VERY boiled down short way of describing it - not a true one to one comparison but the ease of use is quite similar and makes it easy. Good grief... The HARD part of hunting is still getting within your hunting tool's striking distance and then making the good shot...no matter what you are using. As I stated earlier, I found no difference in my actual hunt when I switched from a compound to a crossbow. I was still setting up the same, most times in the very same stands and killing deer at the same distances. The only thing that changed was the execution of the shot and considering the high tech, high let off, all bells and whistles compounds of today that difference was minimal. If ease of shooting is the hook we will hang our caps on then take all modern bows out of the archery season.
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Post by Woody Williams on Nov 29, 2021 16:50:26 GMT -5
My point is that the hunting and fishing industry keeps giving us (outdoorsmen) an advantage year in and year out… crossbows are like fish finders. LiveScope/multi shot crossbow… what is next. The only thing we can hope is the deer get nocturnal faster due to human scent levels elevated, continue to become cam shy, and fish get sonar bing sensitive. The sense of entitlement spans across all things in life… so I don’t expect hunters and anglers to ever say enough is enough… just hope for 6 shooter crossbows and sunglasses that put red dot where the fish is in the water. Thye beauty of archery hunting is that we can all make up our own minds how far we will go to make it easier. That can be a self made long bow shooting reed arrows tipped with self knapped flint arrow heads and spot and stalk only the big bucks. OR It can be the all bells and whistles compound or crossbow sitting in a shoot house over a food plot shooting super duper carbons at the first thing that walks out. We CAN set our OWN limits.. What I dont like is for others to try and set MY limits,
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Post by jimbob on Nov 29, 2021 17:00:32 GMT -5
My point is that the hunting and fishing industry keeps giving us (outdoorsmen) an advantage year in and year out… crossbows are like fish finders. LiveScope/multi shot crossbow… what is next. The only thing we can hope is the deer get nocturnal faster due to human scent levels elevated, continue to become cam shy, and fish get sonar bing sensitive. The sense of entitlement spans across all things in life… so I don’t expect hunters and anglers to ever say enough is enough… just hope for 6 shooter crossbows and sunglasses that put red dot where the fish is in the water. Thye beauty of archery hunting is that we can all make up our own minds how far we will go to make it easier. That can be a self made long bow shooting reed arrows tipped with self knapped flint arrow heads and spot and stalk only the big bucks. OR It can be the all bells and whistles compound or crossbow sitting in a shoot house over a food plot shooting super duper carbons at the first thing that walks out. We CAN set our OWN limits.. What I dont like is for others to try and set MY limits, Woody, in the world of social media, where it’s like look at me… I’m not sure some are willing to have self control. If the number of folks leveraging their legal rights outweighs the guy with limits, then what happens… I like your faith in humanity though.
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Post by tynimiller on Nov 29, 2021 17:23:22 GMT -5
Archery seasons being hunted is increasing 100% due to crossbow usage exploding. This isn't me stating that as a negative or positive, just a fact. I know numerous gun folks that now are grabbing crossbows due to how they're essentially a gun which instead of powder uses a loaded/cocked string and instead of a bullet a bolt - I know a VERY boiled down short way of describing it - not a true one to one comparison but the ease of use is quite similar and makes it easy. Good grief... The HARD part of hunting is still getting within your hunting tool's striking distance and then making the good shot...no matter what you are using. As I stated earlier, I found no difference in my actual hunt when I switched from a compound to a crossbow. I was still setting up the same, most times in the very same stands and killing deer at the same distances. The only thing that changed was the execution of the shot and considering the high tech, high let off, all bells and whistles compounds of today that difference was minimal. If ease of shooting is the hook we will hang our caps on then take all modern bows out of the archery season. Again folks nothing I’m saying is meant to be a negative for crossbows, it is simply true that I know numerous hunters just in my small circle in my main county without even including others I know that have made the switch as crossbows have become much more prevalent and easy to grab and go like a “gun” that never would grab a vertical of any kind. I could argue that is a good thing, introducing more folks to what should be a closer experience with deer and another time to spend in the woods, and definitely is a great way IMO to get youth introduced to hunting (guns encourage farther shots and crossbows still require more patience for shots…I plan on one being how I introduce my son to hunting someday).
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Post by Mack Apiary Bees on Nov 29, 2021 17:27:19 GMT -5
Good grief... The HARD part of hunting is still getting within your hunting tool's striking distance and then making the good shot...no matter what you are using. As I stated earlier, I found no difference in my actual hunt when I switched from a compound to a crossbow. I was still setting up the same, most times in the very same stands and killing deer at the same distances. The only thing that changed was the execution of the shot and considering the high tech, high let off, all bells and whistles compounds of today that difference was minimal. If ease of shooting is the hook we will hang our caps on then take all modern bows out of the archery season. Again folks nothing I’m saying is meant to be a negative for crossbows, it is simply true that I know numerous hunters just in my small circle in my main county without even including others I know that have made the switch as crossbows have become much more prevalent and easy to grab and go like a “gun” that never would grab a vertical of any kind. I could argue that is a good thing, introducing more folks to what should be a closer experience with deer and another time to spend in the woods, and definitely is a great way IMO to get youth introduced to hunting (guns encourage farther shots and crossbows still require more patience for shots…I plan on one being how I introduce my son to hunting someday). More deer are killed by crossbows verses vertical bows. I think if majority rules then vertical bows are out.
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Post by jjas on Nov 29, 2021 17:33:26 GMT -5
My point is that the hunting and fishing industry keeps giving us (outdoorsmen) an advantage year in and year out… crossbows are like fish finders. LiveScope/multi shot crossbow… what is next. The only thing we can hope is the deer get nocturnal faster due to human scent levels elevated, continue to become cam shy, and fish get sonar bing sensitive. The sense of entitlement spans across all things in life… so I don’t expect hunters and anglers to ever say enough is enough… just hope for 6 shooter crossbows and sunglasses that put red dot where the fish is in the water. I thought you were going to say that fish finders are like cellular game cameras based on the post above.
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Post by boonechaser on Nov 29, 2021 17:34:44 GMT -5
Again folks nothing I’m saying is meant to be a negative for crossbows, it is simply true that I know numerous hunters just in my small circle in my main county without even including others I know that have made the switch as crossbows have become much more prevalent and easy to grab and go like a “gun” that never would grab a vertical of any kind. I could argue that is a good thing, introducing more folks to what should be a closer experience with deer and another time to spend in the woods, and definitely is a great way IMO to get youth introduced to hunting (guns encourage farther shots and crossbows still require more patience for shots…I plan on one being how I introduce my son to hunting someday). More deer are killed by crossbows verses vertical bows. I think if majority rules then vertical bows are out. Who cares what weapon someone eles uses? End day WE are all hunters and enjoy the outdoors. That's what it's about. Weapon choice is just that. A CHOICE.
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Post by titanium700 on Nov 29, 2021 17:35:04 GMT -5
My point is that the hunting and fishing industry keeps giving us (outdoorsmen) an advantage year in and year out… crossbows are like fish finders. LiveScope/multi shot crossbow… what is next. The only thing we can hope is the deer get nocturnal faster due to human scent levels elevated, continue to become cam shy, and fish get sonar bing sensitive. The sense of entitlement spans across all things in life… so I don’t expect hunters and anglers to ever say enough is enough… just hope for 6 shooter crossbows and sunglasses that put red dot where the fish is in the water. Thye beauty of archery hunting is that we can all make up our own minds how far we will go to make it easier. That can be a self made long bow shooting reed arrows tipped with self knapped flint arrow heads and spot and stalk only the big bucks. OR It can be the all bells and whistles compound or crossbow sitting in a shoot house over a food plot shooting super duper carbons at the first thing that walks out. We CAN set our OWN limits.. What I dont like is for others to try and set MY limits, Woody, I agree. While I am a vertical bow user. (Mathews Z7) both my kids wanted to get bows too. My son is missing his right hand from birth and while he can shoot his Matthews Creed really good using a custom made release by me he finds it difficult to use when he has to start layering on jackets and heavy clothes. He practiced routinely last year and ended up missing 3 deer mostly because the bow fired while he was drawing. I felt bad for him so this year I came across a smoking deal on a Ravinr20 crossbow. I am super impressed with the accuracy of this thing. Put a leupold crossbones scope on it and has the Jackplate adjuster too. My daughter killed her buck at 46 yds, my son killed a doe earlier this year at 52/3 can’t remember but…..neither one of them would’ve killed their deer without that crossbow. I used to be the one that only wanted archery but 15 yrs ago I opened up to guns and everything else, hasn’t made me kill anymore or less than before. I welcome the use of any weapon that is legal and would never down anybody else for their choice. It’s to me mostly about having a good time in the woods and making memories. Killing something is just the icing on the cake.
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