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Post by boonechaser on Dec 5, 2011 13:41:01 GMT -5
I'm sure I read that our deer biologist said the only reason for OBR being put into place was pressure from hunter's group's who wanted it put into place. (Someone correct me if i am wrong.) And I do support OBR just for the record.
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Post by Woody Williams on Dec 5, 2011 14:22:36 GMT -5
I'm sure I read that our deer biologist said the only reason for OBR being put into place was pressure from hunter's group's who wanted it put into place. (Someone correct me if i am wrong.) And I do support OBR just for the record. You are correct. This was WAY prior to ant ways that we (as Average Joe Deer Hunters) could give input via the internet. As per the DNR - The OBR is a "social issue"
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Post by Woody Williams on Dec 5, 2011 14:25:18 GMT -5
The DNR trying to convince the general public that the OBR is having a major effect on big buck harvests is just a joke. I've never see the DNR try to convince anyone of the sort. The OBR ONLY affected the bowhunters that were killing a buck with their bow, then in turn killing one with a gun. I'm sure that was a small number. It is a trend throughout the hunting community to pass on immature bucks. People watch all these videos and hunting shows and want to shoot deer like they see these hunting "celebrities" shoot. It certainly wouldn't hurt to allow 1 buck with a bow and 1 with a gun. I agree..
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 5, 2011 17:30:58 GMT -5
I agree here as well . Funny I personally am very good friends with one of the Hunters sited in the article by Dean Whimer his name is Clint VanNatter . He and I scouted the very spot he killed his record class buck to together yep we are that tight as friends.So no secrets between us.I have known his feelings for awhile now on the OBR and the eventual return to the TBR.He feels the OBR has served it porpose and needs to be set aside now. So we were talking just tonite on the phone he reminds me of me when I was 29 very driven and full of deer hunting energy . Anyways long story short I asked him about him being quoted in the article .He said that he did not tell the author just that he only supported the OBR and that was why he was seeing bigger bucks and more of them . He said he told him he could see the good in both ways and they both had or have their advantages and that he dose see the need to return to the two now because the its time for it to better manage our bucks and the hunters and buck herd need it . So thats a fact and what he told me word for word he seemed a bit po'ed because his whole statement expounding the good of the TBR was not included .Once again tactical omissions that are politically driven to meet the ends of a few who want to take from other hunters so they can have big antlers on the wall .This will if the OBR continues single handily deplete the number of hunters over the years more than any other factor here in this state Oh, now I get it. I think you mean Dean Weimer, rigtht? Dean has been pro-OBR since the get go. A lot of his articles are slanted pro-OBR. No surprise to me he left out the rest of the story. Outdoor writers are good at that, aren't they? If I get a chance I'll find and post the previous months article on the same subject, but by a different writer. He showed BOTH sides in the debate.. Yes thats his name sorry didnt have the artical so the name was botched thanks again.
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 5, 2011 17:51:18 GMT -5
I've read both articles and followed the debate one buck two buck for as long as it has been out there and the only way to bring any kind of resolution, agreement, whatever would to be to reintroduce the two buck limit and test the back data after five years or longer against the data we have now. My opinion:The one buck rule certainly hasn't taken away any opportunity to hunt deer in this state unless one is a buck only hunter. Even then that guy seems to find a work around or has the ability to do so. It is a social, perception issue and has to do with basic human desires of greed and always wanting more and better. FWIW--I'm not any different, just have become more selective and I don't "need" or "want" two bucks Steve Sorry but a takaway is a take away and eventhough we have the ability to take hundereds of antlerless deer now we had the very same ability prior to the OBR .So despite your feelings on this it is and always be a takeaway and a hunter should never have to work around a bag limit restriction or takeaway. No one can dispute this as any kind of rub and not a takeaway.
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 5, 2011 18:03:48 GMT -5
Guy's want to kill 2 buck's plus have one of the longest firearm's season of any surrounding state? ? (OK, let's just match Illinois's deer season's and limit's. )Would be great as far as i'm concerned. I hunt with bow,shotgun and m loader and would be fine with a much shorter firearm season. No i'm not anti-firearm, but somewhere you have got to take pressure off the antlered deer. (If you want some kind of quality .) I don't care how you do it. (OBR, shorter firearm season, firearm season moved out of rut, shorter bow season ETC.) Greed, greed, greed. Some of you will never be satisfied unless you can hunt year round and kill unlimited animal's. Sorry but this is very dramatic isnt it Really take the pressure off the bucks this statment is laughable .Let me get this strait you believe that changing or shortening seasons or moving them will take the pressure off of them??? Not a chance there are thousands of hunters everyday in every county of ours and every state in the midwest hunting bucks every day of every season here and in every state that has a deer seasons .There is nothing at all that will take the pressure off the bucks in any state during any type of season. Be it bow ,gun,ML ,rifle , Slingshot ,spear ,Crossbow the exact same amount of desire to kill a buck and pressure is there by every hunter in the field . See your mindset is much like several in every state ,but its flawed because short of totally making buck hunting illegal or closed all but a few days that pressure remains the exact same in every woods in the state.And yet we still take more bucks almost every year even with stricter rules why is that ?? Think about it its not because hunters are not pressuring and hunting the bucks in ours and every state .
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Post by boman on Dec 5, 2011 18:06:42 GMT -5
It certainly wouldn't hurt to allow 1 buck with a bow and 1 with a gun.
depends on ones values,where one hunts and who hunts around you---wouldn't hurt what? In my case allowing two bucks certainly has hurt my ability to kill a mature buck(reached full body growth potential) which biologically is 4 1/2 yrs old.
Steve
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 5, 2011 18:17:54 GMT -5
It certainly wouldn't hurt to allow 1 buck with a bow and 1 with a gun. depends on ones values,where one hunts and who hunts around you---wouldn't hurt what? In my case allowing two bucks certainly has hurt my ability to kill a mature buck(reached full body growth potential) which biologically is 4 1/2 yrs old. Steve OK then by your words then you have not killed a mature buck yet then in 10 years of the OBR am I right ?? Then what makes the difference of you taking a mature buck if there are a few more bucks killed ?? I mean why would a few more bucks being taken in your area make any difference to your abilty to take a muture buck ? After all we never did or never will have a giant number of double dippers in any are of the state now did we ?
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Post by boman on Dec 5, 2011 18:21:49 GMT -5
Sorry but a takeway is a take away yep it sure is! back to values---I started deer hunting in 1977 when you could only kill one buck. I guess I'm pretty old fashioned and getting older. Steve
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 5, 2011 18:35:11 GMT -5
Sorry but a takeway is a take away yep it sure is! back to values---I started deer hunting in 1977 when you could only kill one buck. I guess I'm pretty old fashioned and getting older. Steve Been hunting now for 36 years and will close my 37, this year and my values are as fallows we worked very very hard to grow this deer herd back then we were in the grow the deer herd phase .Thus shoot one buck only then as the deer herd grew. Then we could shoot a doe and also later a second buck and at one point we were allowed one year 4 bucks and the next 3 bucks and the deer herd did not falter of stop growth and we were taken back to the TBR. There were plenty of bucks and will always be enough considering falling hunter numbers and growing deer numbers . I personally want to continue to reap my reward for being a good steward of the land and deer herd I grew it to the point that we no longer can lower the numbers it just grows larger every year .And now they took away our second buck IMHO apparently because there where whinny deer hunters struggling to kill any deer at all . LOL But I want to be able to make decisions and manage my deer herd locally and that includes bucks as well as does .I in all these years have never seen so many big bodied poor racked buck deer .And that is the direct result of 10 years of hunters passing up those unattractive bucks .And why should I be penalized and take a crappy racked old deer ?Only to then have to let my mall hanger buck walk on by because I was a good deer herd manager?? FYI as it was 10 years ago its time for a shift deer numbers and buck numbers are now beckoning us back and so is those who want to manage what is breeding our doe herd!And I will be honest here since most hid the reasons for or against the OBR with BS rhetoric I feel that if I want to take a second buck and it is not detrimental to the deer herd in any way I should be allowed to as should every other hunter in this state. That was honest a statement as I could ever give.
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Post by gobblerstopper on Dec 5, 2011 18:37:45 GMT -5
Values? What does the herds ability to withstand the relatively small number of "double dippers" (that the pro-OBR guys seem unable to acknowledge) have to do with values?
There are mature deer in every part of the state that has deer. The blame for a persons inability to kill one should be placed on themselves, not the DNR for not giving them one behind every tree. I know guys with small places to hunt that get it done every year and they don't rely on controlling their neighbors to do it.
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Post by boman on Dec 5, 2011 19:07:04 GMT -5
OK then by your words then you have not killed a mature buck yet then in 10 years of the OBR am I right ?? Then what makes the difference of you taking a mature buck if there are a few more bucks killed ?? I mean why would a few more bucks being taken in your area make any difference to your abilty to take a muture buck ? After all we never did or never will have a giant number of double dippers in any are of the state now did we ?billybob---go back and read my original post---page two I think where I responded to a post by timex---as far as killing a mature buck I doubt I've killed a mature buck ever, biggest deer is a 165lb dressed 130 class brown co buck in 1979(may have been 4 1/2 just don't know). as far as double dippers 50% of the guys who hunt the same farm I do are, at least until next year. will this help me kill a mature buck? possibly, ask me five yrs from now. Fwiw---I quit deer hunting in 1988 when I killed a 120class buck in his bed at 40ydswith a roundball while still hunting(never have hunted with a shotgun). went bird hunting till last year when I decided to take up deer hunting again and all I can say is its a heck of a lot easier not only to get a deer today, its a heck of a lot easier than walking behind a bird dog. I killed another 120 class last year and two does and have passed up shots on 7 different immature bucks this year. I'm trying to kill a doe but they seem to be more elusive ;D Steve
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 5, 2011 19:09:49 GMT -5
OK then by your words then you have not killed a mature buck yet then in 10 years of the OBR am I right ?? Then what makes the difference of you taking a mature buck if there are a few more bucks killed ?? I mean why would a few more bucks being taken in your area make any difference to your abilty to take a muture buck ? After all we never did or never will have a giant number of double dippers in any are of the state now did we ?billybob---go back and read my original post---page two I think where I responded to a post by timex---as far as killing a mature buck I doubt I've killed a mature buck ever, biggest deer is a 165lb dressed 130 class brown co buck in 1979(may have been 4 1/2 just don't know). as far as double dippers 50% of the guys who hunt the same farm I do are, at least until next year. will this help me kill a mature buck? possibly, ask me five yrs from now. Fwiw---I quit deer hunting in 1988 when I killed a 120class buck in his bed at 40ydswith a roundball while still hunting(never have hunted with a shotgun). went bird hunting till last year when I decided to take up deer hunting again and all I can say is its a heck of a lot easier not only to get a deer today, its a heck of a lot easier than walking behind a bird dog. I killed another 120 class last year and two does and have passed up shots on 7 different immature bucks this year. I'm trying to kill a doe but they seem to be more elusive ;D Steve How are they double dipping ?? Is it a Urban zone ?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2011 19:16:28 GMT -5
Well.....suppose that the number of hunters is relatively the same as it was when the OBR started, and that the deer herd has expanded, say maybe double which is probably on the high side. So, if the same number of hunters as before, might well kill 12,000 bucks (if the herd is double what it was). That number is probably actually less than that. So, the deer herd may have been 500,000 then, and is now 1,000,000 strong. That means that the number of bucks in the herd has risen by at least 250,000 from what it was before. So, you think you could extract 6,000 additional bucks(12,000 total) from the 250,000 without adverse effects?
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 5, 2011 19:29:46 GMT -5
Well.....suppose that the number of hunters is relatively the same as it was when the OBR started, and that the deer herd has expanded, say maybe double which is probably on the high side. So, if the same number of hunters as before, might well kill 12,000 bucks (if the herd is double what it was). That number is probably actually less than that. So, the deer herd may have been 500,000 then, and is now 1,000,000 strong. That means that the number of bucks in the herd has risen by at least 250,000 from what it was before. So, you think you could extract 6,000 additional bucks(12,000 total) from the 250,000 without adverse effects? No no adverse effects because simply put and using last years harvest number of say 56k that would be 69,000 bucks taken and that would leave bucks of all age classes behind as we are now .And it will be a simple math problem 250000 - 69000 = 181,000 antlered bucks that remain {IMHO you are a bit low in antlered buck estimate but not worth argueing about} . But wait a min we have more math to do !!! We need to add the Button bucks that survived back in and its more every year just due to shear numbers . So now you just replaced that 69,000 with likely 200000 or more button bucks born prior to that hunting season that makes 381000 bucks the next year and that don't include that next years years button buck crop that will be grown in numbers again.likely this time closer 250 -300 k button bucks .Its exponential growth So just using simple math no no way will that small a number detriment the buck herd in any way you will still be recruiting mature bucks every year and enough to go around as it were!! LOL
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Post by Woody Williams on Dec 5, 2011 19:31:44 GMT -5
Sorry but a takeway is a take away yep it sure is! back to values---I started deer hunting in 1977 when you could only kill one buck. I guess I'm pretty old fashioned and getting older. Steve In started deer hunting in 1968 and you could kill two bucks. One with a bow and one with a gun. In fact there was one year when we could kill four bucks. Two with a bow, one with a firearm and one with a MZ.. You have to go way back further than 1977 for a one buck limit..
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Post by billybobteeth on Dec 5, 2011 19:44:31 GMT -5
One other thought here and I know for a fact that antler size and configuration is irrelevant to age and maturity .And most hunters think by letting all the bucks live to 4.5 years old is some magic number where they all grow giant record class antlers! And that simply is not the case in natural selection. Most will never achieve 140 inches even at 4.5 years old it takes the right combination of genetics and food to do that .Numbers don't mean much when it comes to antler size .
When a deer reaches full body growth here he will weigh 200# or more Field dressed before the rut more than likely 1.5 - 2.5 year olds will not be close to that size and 3.5 will bounce around that but rarely make it that big . Its much like live stock years and body growth go hand in hand they can always be smaller bodied for many reasons .But to reach body weights over 200 FD for real not guessed weights takes years .There have been 2.5 year old bucks killed here with 170-190 inch antlers the Downing buck 194 inches was only 2.5 years old and was 16 points anda huge main frame 10. It was aged by a state biologist on the spot when checked in and offically weighed in at 172# FD in Oct. The rack weighed almost 10 #
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2011 19:56:40 GMT -5
I don't see that. Any 4.5 that doesn't score in the 140's is some sort of freak or broke off. We call any buck over 2.5 a mature buck, and stop protecting them at that point. The guys that will kill the 2.5's and 3.5's leave the 4.5's and older for the die hard trophy guys.. Most hunters I see are fairly happy with a deer in the 140's and 150's.
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Post by boman on Dec 5, 2011 20:10:24 GMT -5
How are they double dipping ?? Is it a Urban zone ? Yes You have to go way back further than 1977 for a one buck limit..
I stand corrected also should have used the word "opportunity" instead of "ability" in a previous post. A one buck limit will give me more opportunity to kill a mature buck---I already have the "ability" if the "oppotunity" presents itself.
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Post by Woody Williams on Dec 5, 2011 20:23:18 GMT -5
How are they double dipping ?? Is it a Urban zone ? Yes You have to go way back further than 1977 for a one buck limit..
I stand corrected also should have used the word "opportunity" instead of "ability" in a previous post. A one buck limit will give me more opportunity to kill a mature buck---I already have the "ability" if the "oppotunity" presents itself. What gives you the real "opportunity" to kill a mature buck is the increasing number of deer hunters that are dissatisfied with killing a yearling buck and wait for something bigger. That was happening WAY before the OBR was even thought of. It has been 25 years since I killed a yearling buck, and I am certainly not alone in that quest.
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