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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 22, 2009 15:16:58 GMT -5
My two cents...
Can a fenced hunt be fair chase?
Absolutely. BUT....
That depends on:
1) The amount of ground
2) Cover (type and amount) for the animals
3) Terrain
4) If the deer or other critters are habituated to humans
5) Amount of deer or other critters..
HOWEVER... I have never seen any of such a place in the midwest. They "might" exist, but I have never heard of any.
Probably most of the deer "ranches" in Texas could qualify as fair chase. I'm sure that there are deer on 10,000 acres that have never seen the fence.
I dont watch too many deer hutning videos but most of the ones that I have seen that come from Texas it is usually a shooter in a box blind overlooking a long stretch of road. All of a sudden we see deer and hogs filtering out of the brush to feed on the road. Why would they do that? Hmm.. Seems that the grain truck just went down the road scattering corn.. BOOM...."GREAT HUNT!!"
Now, there is 10,000 acres but human habituated deer/critters makes it an unfair chase ... to me. YMMV.
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Post by js2397 on Jan 22, 2009 15:38:17 GMT -5
I am still surprised at how many of have a problem with Obama because he wants to regulate business and take away certain rights. Then in the next breath you say that they should shut down a business because you don’t like it. The greatest thing about this country is the free market system. Anyone can have an idea and create their own business. If there is a demand they will make money, increase local jobs, and bring money into other local businesses. I do not think this is hunting but if someone wants to pay thousands of dollars to shoot a deer on my neighbor’s property I say good fro him to create a market for something that has very little monetary value.
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Post by tickman1961 on Jan 22, 2009 15:44:21 GMT -5
disc - It is good to know how closed minded you are on the subject of what is hunting....
yelling (caps) is not necessary to get your feelings across...geessh
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Post by Old Ironsights on Jan 22, 2009 15:53:28 GMT -5
Woody. Like I've said before... is hunting the mostly under fence Military Preserves/State Park "pen hunting"? Dunes State Park is mostly under High Fence... but the deer don't have to even break a sweat to get away from the hunters. They just amble into the armpit-deep swamp and wait it out or go down into the deep ravines between Dunes where nobody goes because you would need a helicopter for recovery. The Intent of both the Property Owner and the Hunter is everything. If the owner intends it to be a shooting pen with purchaced and guaranteed deer, then there is an ethical problem. But if the Property owner intends that his property be wild and difficult with no guarantees, then it's really no different than any other small-property hunting. Intent is everything.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2009 16:24:59 GMT -5
My two cents... Can a fenced hunt be fair chase? Absolutely. BUT....That depends on: 1) The amount of ground 2) Cover (type and amount) for the animals 3) Terrain 4) If the deer or other critters are habituated to humans 5) Amount of deer or other critters.. Plus a few more. Mainly, what the fenced operator does to make sure he sells his product. As we saw in the Bellar video, if the animal doesn't present itself in front of the shooter, than there is no money changing hands. IF the animal is drugged or IF the animal is forced in front of the shooter by a fence or extremely small kill pen or other artifical means, then it's a canned event. But in reality, there are individuals out there that don't require the full experience for one reason or the other. Some of them are hunters, some aren't. Some time there are a lot of folks who would hunt those places themselves, IF they had the money. I personally have gotten over the fact that these things exsist because if there wasn't a demand, they wouldn't. Time changes things and these places are a sign of the time we live in.
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Post by buckup on Jan 22, 2009 17:21:52 GMT -5
I've been to these "put and take" phesant hunts and i'll tell you first hand, 99% of the birds have to be physicaly kicked or thrown into the air for a flush. If you can't hit one of those birds you don't need to be behind a shotgun. So, if ya want to do away with deer hunting facilities ya better be in favor of doing away with phesant,quail,and chukar hunting facilities. dang Jason, super duper sportsman like you going to a P and T bird shoot, what's the world coming to? I've been to some to, and you must have gotten the ones that were drugged like you do in the deer pens. Deer pens and P and T bird shoots have absolutely nothing in common. Of course not, when they fit into YOUR lifestyle. Hippocrit.
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Post by buckup on Jan 22, 2009 17:34:49 GMT -5
Bellar,Bellar,Bellar......This is not a common practice. I suppose since there are people that poach then the rest of us should be labled as such. Same with people that tresspass. I live in Ky. and I challenge you to find a Deer Farmer in this state that run his buisness that way. If Bellar is the only thing you boys can bring to this disscusion, your wasting your breath. Out of the hundreds of hunters,and non hunters alike that stop by my farm each year to see my deer, I have never,never had anyone say anything negative towards what I do or how my animals are treated. I suppose they might be more apt to say something when there hiding behind a keyboard in the dark.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Jan 22, 2009 18:54:12 GMT -5
My UDZ property is roughly 9 sq blocks (3 blocks on a side - ish). It has exactly 4 places/funnels where the deer enter or leave the property. Some do, some don't.
3 funnels were made by windblown trees and one is the main gate to the city street.
They are all holes in an 8' fence. A Fence I must stay 200ft away from at all times.
Not all "hig fence" is "high fence".
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Post by discgolf94 on Jan 22, 2009 19:45:20 GMT -5
The greatest thing about this country is the free market system. Anyone can have an idea and create their own business. YES as a matter of a fact i do know what its like to own a business. Im 7 years strong. If you and i are standing in your back yard and i start throwing dove's in the air or i turn a deer lose in your yard and you shot is that hunting? Im not sure what that is called but it isn't hunting. I have read on here a few different types of definition on what fair chase is.But i see fair chase as in any animal able to escape with out being cornered or confined to an area .In high fence set up you can chase/stalk the deer to a fence line and shoot. He CANT escape!!! If you want to shoot deer on high fence set up so be it who an i to judge but dont call it hunting. MAN vs WILD THAT'S HUNTING
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Post by Old Ironsights on Jan 22, 2009 21:04:31 GMT -5
What is UDZ? The deer are significantly less spooky than "free range".
There is so much noise they come TO it rather than just run.
I can Whistle certain Pods to within 10 feet of me.
One button buck will nearly eat out of my hand.
Some of these wander on and off my UDZ preserve...
In town, what is "wild"? Management is management... but it is still hunting...
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Post by whiteoak on Jan 22, 2009 22:59:19 GMT -5
I have come to the conclusion that if it's legal and no game laws are being broken there's not much we can do about the high fence operations. What does make me sick is when a shooter kill a big deer and it's plastered all over the web with look what this hunter killed. The two practices of hunting wild free roaming deer and paying money to go behind a fence and shoot a deer should be in two different categories altogether. It's very clear now days that if you have enough money any body can kill a Boon & Crockett deer behind a fence. Hell most high fence operations guarantee it. I will never support high fence deer hunting in the state of Indiana.
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Post by Decatur on Jan 22, 2009 23:51:40 GMT -5
I if it's legal and no game laws are being broken there's not much we can do about the high fence operations. We need to get that law changed before we have a widespread case of CWD caused by one of these so called "hunting" operations!
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Post by whiteoak on Jan 23, 2009 0:23:57 GMT -5
I if it's legal and no game laws are being broken there's not much we can do about the high fence operations. We need to get that law changed before we have a widespread case of CWD caused by one of these so called "hunting" operations! It was in the process of being changed, but from my understanding it was over ruled in the end. I have no problems with the deer farmer that raises their stock for the production of lures and urine, or even slaughter. When they are in the market to produce and sell mega bucks to the shooting pens so some rich guy can have a Booner hanging over his fire place, and have his smiling mug with his hard earned trophy plastered on the net like the guy in Woody's post Big Ego, I draw the line.
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Post by scrub-buster on Jan 23, 2009 3:11:09 GMT -5
I would be more proud of a forkhorn that I hunted hard for and killed on my property than a genetically enhanced freak deer that costs $10,000 to shoot when it "walks" by on a "guided" hunt. Just my opinion. Everyone has a right to there own.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Jan 23, 2009 9:46:55 GMT -5
We need to get that law changed before we have a widespread case of CWD caused by one of these so called "hunting" operations! It was in the process of being changed, but from my understanding it was over ruled in the end. I have no problems with the deer farmer that raises their stock for the production of lures and urine, or even slaughter. When they are in the market to produce and sell mega bucks to the shooting pens so some rich guy can have a Booner hanging over his fire place, and have his smiling mug with his hard earned trophy plastered on the net like the guy in Woody's post Big Ego, I draw the line. Yep. Back to "intent"...
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Post by discgolf94 on Jan 23, 2009 12:08:09 GMT -5
Im am truly glad i have found a place to get a debate on what hunting is. I will say is probably the first of many to come. I do love to read many different options any topics. Please keep them coming. Even if im narrow minded to the fact of high fence hunting.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Jan 23, 2009 13:05:50 GMT -5
I can't answer the Poll because "high Fence" is not defined.
If it means "buy a deer" then "no".
If it means hunting where there are fences (as where I and others have described) - then I have to say, "yes", based on Intent.
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Post by indianahick on Jan 23, 2009 13:39:09 GMT -5
I voted against high fence hunting, based Sly on what we have here in the mid west and more than likely in the eastern part of the country. But what Texas has is entirely different. There they have 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 acres under one fence, and then there are ranches that are larger than most of the counties if not all here in Indiana. So I guess what I am really against is the high fence pens of less than 10 acres where an animal has no chance for an escape. Now do I feel that someone has the right to high fence his property and raise deer to sell for the various products and meat the answer is yes. I am just against their being killing pens and that is what most if not all are here. Military impoundments that are high fence usually encompass hundreds of acres with in one outside fence and have areas that are off limits to humans.
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Post by js2397 on Jan 23, 2009 14:43:55 GMT -5
Would anyone care if people were paying $10, 000 to a local farmer to shoot a cow in a feed lot?
I don't think a lot of the hunting operations are really hunting. By the same argument most guided hunts would not be hunting either though. They are fair chase but when you arrive in camp the owner will probably show you pictures of deer they have and what would be acceptable to shoot. Then they will take you to a pre-hung stand overlooking a bait pile or food plot there really is no difference if you aren’t the one who planted it. Then as the owner has said the one of the bucks you are looking for shows up in the field. You did no hunting in that situation. You sat in a tree and shot a deer. I have no problem with anyone doing that just don’t try to tell me you are hunting. Someone else did all of the hunting for you.
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Post by dbd870 on Jan 23, 2009 14:44:38 GMT -5
We haven't had a high fence thread in around a year; have to love the window between deer and turkey seasons!
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