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Post by cambygsp on Jan 15, 2009 6:49:01 GMT -5
cambygsp - "Management decisions and rules should be based on biologic data and COMMON sense....PERIOD!" First, the youth season was NOT established for deer management purposes. REALLY? If we don't recruit new deer hunters, how will the deer herd be managed in 20 years? I think the youth deer season was established to recruit youths into deer hunting.......do you think it's for other reasons?
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Post by cambygsp on Jan 15, 2009 8:56:44 GMT -5
15 years old or younger at time of the hunt" rule was decided on for safety purposes. Don't know about you, but "safety" falls under the "common sense" category in my book. We've already had at least one youth season shooting accident that I'm aware of. Opening this thing up to TEENAGERS with access to WEAPONS and CAR KEYS is going to increase the odds for more. Hmmmm................I thought the requirement to have a adult with the youth during the youth hunt was based on safety......and no one has proposed to delete that requirement.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 15, 2009 9:07:18 GMT -5
First, the youth season was NOT established for deer management purposes. PAV, That is exactly what the main pushers of the "antlerless only" for the youths said. Teach them to be "deer managers". I say teach them to be deer hunters. They can learn to become "deer managers" the rest of their lives. I have alwys been against making laws on what some of the very few MIGHT do. Sort of like banning certain guns because a minority will use them illegally. Whether youths and their parents obey the youth weekend laws is an enforcement issue.Why cut out a significnat number of youths on what some MIGHT do? I'm not Jack but, I've seen administrative rules changed after the fact just by a group meeting with the director behind closed doors. All things can be changed at any time, right?
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Post by jackc99 on Jan 15, 2009 9:31:22 GMT -5
Jack, Is that proposal all or nothing as written? I support the antlered deer change, but I think the age change is a bad idea. Did the DNR just throw that in there? I recall them asking for feedback on the antlered deer, but I don't remember a word about changing the age restriction? The proposal was changed on Tuesday. They split off the youth hunting section as I described above and made it a separate proposal so as not to delay the bulk of the deer rules. The only reason for readjusting the age restriction for ALL rules was for consistency. In some rules a youth was described as 16 or younger and in others 18 or younger. They are making this new rule the standard youth age for ALL purposes. To me this was as substantive a change as adding the buck but I kept my mouth shut...this time. Jack
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2009 9:33:31 GMT -5
cambygsp - "Management decisions and rules should be based on biologic data and COMMON sense....PERIOD!" First, the youth season was NOT established for deer management purposes. Second, the "15 years old or younger at time of the hunt" rule was decided on for safety purposes. Don't know about you, but "safety" falls under the "common sense" category in my book. We've already had at least one youth season shooting accident that I'm aware of. Opening this thing up to TEENAGERS with access to WEAPONS and CAR KEYS is going to increase the odds for more. Jack, Is that proposal all or nothing as written? I support the antlered deer change, but I think the age change is a bad idea. Did the DNR just throw that in there? I recall them asking for feedback on the antlered deer, but I don't remember a word about changing the age restriction? the youth season was NOT established for deer management purposes.
Not true--Youth Seasons are all the same- The purpose is to HELP insure that the sport survives with aging populations and the fact that the youth are the future. Start them off right by trating them as adults. IOW- put aside the notion that all the bucks belong to a certain few elists. 2nd point-- Youth hunters are defined by a rule. Youth seasons should be consistant with that rule. Lots of people of all ages have car keys and some don't violate the rules.
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Post by racktracker on Jan 15, 2009 10:06:12 GMT -5
How can anyone in good conscience stand in the way of this proposal?Let them kill any sex deer that they want.
IT IS THEIR HUNT.
Age? Standardize it. 18 or 16 ..make it the same in every regulation.Why confuse people?
18 is fine with me. I have other things to worry about besides if a youth with a drivers license just might break a game law. Sorry, but that sounds like a pitiful excuse.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2009 13:04:06 GMT -5
"All you need is one 18 year old high school senior and a carload of his 17 year old buddies....regardless of how much experience they have in the field....and you may well have created a more dangerous situation than general firearm season."
The one 18 yr. old (adult) can only have 2 youths with him. the rest of those in the car would be in violation.
There's hundreds of game laws that 'anyone' can violate. Your dwelling on just one of them to try and derail this rule change for some reason.
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Post by cambygsp on Jan 15, 2009 16:59:29 GMT -5
OK....then lets make the minimum age for the mentor 21!
There are tons of youths out there between the ages of 16 to 18 who do not deer hunt!.....yet Why limit their partisapation?
I took a non family member on their first deer hunt last year during the youth part of the deer season. I did in fact speak to the young mans father prior to the hunt....and he tahnked me for spending time with his son.
The only shot Kyle had was at an antlered deer!
He was able to take a fork horn the second weekend of general gun season.
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Post by greghopper on Jan 15, 2009 20:09:51 GMT -5
Shouldn't a youth Hunter be anyone with a youth Lic. And a mentor anyone with a regular Lic? .....
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 16, 2009 8:18:49 GMT -5
"Shouldn't a youth Hunter be anyone with a youth Lic. And a mentor anyone with a regular Lic? ..... " If that's what you propose, you have just turned a "youth" loose to hunt by himself on the youth hunt.....as an 18 year old could be hunting on a youth license. They have from the first of the year until their 18th birthday to purchase a youth license....and it is good for the entire year. I don't believe that is what Greg proposed. At least I did not read it that way. Absolutely and how would that change by allowing kids to take either sex and be up to 18 years old? Are not 18 year olds called "youths" in other parts of the regulations? . Twice you have brought up "safety". Please tell us what you mean by that. Is allowing 16 to 18 year olds more unsafe for the hunters in the field? Or is the "safety" part that was "debated" about some 16 - 18 year old that MIGHT drive themselves to hunt and thus MIGHT have an accident while driving? Are not the same 16 to 18 year olds REQUIRED to have someone with them that is 18 and above that has a regular licnse? Having a regular license requires a HE certificate doesn't it? So how is it more unsafe? Also please cite that "accident" that you stated that one youth had. PAV, We cant legislate every "what if" that is available or we could just shut hunting down for everyone. Any youth hunting by themselves is AN ENFORCEMENT ISSUE as it is now. I see that the NRC/DNR is also changing the cartidge/shell in the guns before/after hunting hours. Do you want that stopped as someone MIGHT shoot something after hours. How about P & Y's rules on lighted sight pins as someone MIGHT shoot a deer after hours. "Might" gets old in law making.. All very silly rules as is the age limit on youths when the term youth is used differently in other parts of the regs. I would say that both were "debated" just as the original regulation was. I would also say that this is in reponse to what hunters have been saying and giving input in for the last 3 or 4 years. This is nothing new. If you have missed it in the past, you haven't been paying attention. Your opinion is noted.. The "process" is NO different than the processes that have been used in the past. The NRC is contacted by individuals about 'wants' and they made the decision to open it up for hunter input. Meetings and more discussionsare held and then a decision is made. Nothing different there. It just happens it is not going your way this time... so far. It is in everyone's best interest to give input.
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Post by cambygsp on Jan 16, 2009 8:34:44 GMT -5
I am trying to figure out why we should not attempt to recruit "kids" between the ages of 16 to 18 into deer hunting.
The whole object here is to recruit more deer hunters, that will assure the sport survives and dosent die off when us old hunters do. (RIP Art).
Pav, would you feel more comfortable if the mentor had to be at least 21?
or
Do you just want to limit partisapation?
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Post by whitetaildave24 on Jan 16, 2009 9:11:37 GMT -5
Even if the youth is 18 years of age and hunts during the special youth season, don't they still have to have a mentor with them. I believe this is true and if so I really cannot see the big deal here.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 10:14:11 GMT -5
Even if the youth is 18 years of age and hunts during the special youth season, don't they still have to have a mentor with them. I believe this is true and if so I really cannot see the big deal here. A youth who would turn 18 during the license year would not need to have a mentor close by. Hw would then pruchase an adult license the following license year.....hopefully.
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Post by whitetaildave24 on Jan 16, 2009 11:15:47 GMT -5
(3)As used in this section, "youth" means an individual who is less than eighteen (18) years of age by the date of the hunt.As I reread this I understand it to say if the youth turns 18 before the youth season arrives then they cannot participate in the hunt, but could be a mentor for someone else.
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Post by hardwickbv on Jan 16, 2009 12:28:26 GMT -5
" Also please cite that "accident" that you stated that one youth had. There are very few "accidents" in hunting. Almost all "accidents" are really blatant disregard for the Hunters Code of Conduct and/or Hunting regulations and should not be referred to as "accidents" There is not an age limit young or old to stupidity. Bob
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Post by strutnrut64 on Jan 16, 2009 14:16:38 GMT -5
Awesome I hope it passes, the kids are the future of the sport, not some old fart who is afraid some child will shoot his buck!!!
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Post by robwalker on Jan 16, 2009 14:35:45 GMT -5
WHAT HE SAID.
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Post by hornharvester on Jan 16, 2009 16:11:29 GMT -5
Pav,
Nothing personal but after reading all your posts on this subject IMO this age restriction you are for is nothing more than a smoke screen for another reason. h.h.
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Post by cambygsp on Jan 16, 2009 18:07:04 GMT -5
Fact is, the age limit was debated before the youth season was established. My guess is, the individual proposing the change was not even part of that process. So if you were not involved two or three years ago, you can't be involved today?
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Post by jackc99 on Jan 16, 2009 18:16:44 GMT -5
Fact is, the age limit was debated before the youth season was established. My guess is, the individual proposing the change was not even part of that process. Instead of researching the reasoning behind the limit, let's change it for the sake of "simplicity". I see that train of thought all the time in engineering....and it usually results in more problems than good. Jack, you were on the committee and involved neck deep...and I assume you know who is responsible for the age limit change proposal. Not asking for a name, but was that individual involved with the yiouth only season establishment phase? I'm trying to read between the lines here. I'm assuming you are asking who proposed the change in age limit for the youth license? That came from no individual but was suggested by the DNR as a way to simplify and standardize youth age limits across the board. No one from DNR was on the committee that proposed the youth seasons. Hope this is what you are asking. Jack
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