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Post by greghopper on Dec 21, 2006 11:51:13 GMT -5
Good post ...DEC.
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Post by dec on Dec 21, 2006 11:59:23 GMT -5
I'm done with yet another discussion on here. Not sure why I even jumped in. I have no dog in the fight as I prefer to bow hunt. But honestly people, don't kid yourselves about what the public perceives as a rifle and what it is capable of.
My last post on this topic.
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Post by js2397 on Dec 21, 2006 12:04:29 GMT -5
If they do it they should state all the legal cartridges and not just the dimensions of the case. That way there is no confusion and we don't have someone trying to invent some crazy cartridge that will fit the criteria.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Dec 21, 2006 12:07:27 GMT -5
See mbogo ... there is no point in even discussing this. I'm NOT against these guns. You and these guys are arguing selling points that IMO are should not be used in this case. What points do you suggest? Unfortunately (?) those are the only arguments that can withstand Legal Challange. If you don't want the Legislature writing Game Laws, then the regs that the DNR creates have to be able to withstand rigorous legal scrutiny. Still, not using the term "rifle" when discussing carbines changes the mental image in the listener and helps diminish the "cognative dissonance" created by conflating the terms.
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Post by greghopper on Dec 21, 2006 12:07:28 GMT -5
If they do it they should state all the legal cartridges and not just the dimensions of the case. That way there is no confusion and we don't have someone trying to invent some crazy cartridge that will fit the criteria. O...thats comming
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Post by Old Ironsights on Dec 21, 2006 12:09:18 GMT -5
If they do it they should state all the legal cartridges and not just the dimensions of the case. That way there is no confusion and we don't have someone trying to invent some crazy cartridge that will fit the criteria. Makes sense. Call it by head stamp. Easy for the CO and easy for the consumer. And that's from a guy who likes to invent cartridges... ;D
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Post by hornharvester on Dec 21, 2006 12:18:56 GMT -5
Dec,
I think your definition of the average joe being ignorant about guns is not true. Most of the average joes use 12 ga guns for deer hunting. The very few who would invest in a pistol caliber rifle is gong to be real small.
The argument of them not practicing enough could be said for all the weapon seasons. I know several bow hunters who don't even get their bow out until a few days before season. Go the your local bow shop a couple days before the opening and see how many guys are waiting in line to get something done to their bow.
I agree with you about most guys on this site are above the average joe when it comes to hunting. most of use here make it our lifestyle and are dedicated to the sport.
They will always be wounding of animal with any weapon. Some say bow hunters wound more deer than the other hunters combined. I know Ive lost a few bow hunting in the last 15 years and it makes me sick to do so and i practice all summer long.
Another legal weapon means more opportunity for some one who other wise might now hunt. Anyone who cares about the sport of deer hunting for the future knows limiting opportunity by limiting weapons is not good. We need all the hunters we can get into the woods if we want to pass the heritage of deer hunting or the sport of hunting to our children and their children.
gregghopper,
for some reason i get the idea you don't want any gun seasons for deer at all. if thats not so then i apologize but if it is then please explain. h.h.
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Post by dec on Dec 21, 2006 12:40:14 GMT -5
HH.
Joe Average deer hunter is very ignorant, not only about guns, but many hunting issues. Trust me I know many of them.
I agree there are many that don't practice at all with any of their weapons. I spend A LOT of time at my local bow shop. The running joke on Sept 30th is many of us walk in and up to the owners (friends of ours) and tell them we want a new bow decked out so we can hunt in the morning. MANY ignorant people actually do this.
Again, I'm not opposed to these guns being legal. I just think that many on here are kidding themselves when it comes to the perception of these guns in the general public and the expectations that the average Saturday morning deer hunter will have from them.
Don't kid yourselves and don't try and blow smoke about it.
OK I SWEAR I'M DONE WITH THIS TOPIC!
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Post by hornharvester on Dec 21, 2006 13:03:21 GMT -5
Dec,
I think pistol caliber rifles are a specialty weapon and most of the average joes wont use them. I feel most of the hunters who will use them are going to be older more experienced hunters just like the centerfire rifle cartridge handguns hunters now. I know several guys who use these guns now and not one of them is what id call the average joe.
No one is blowing smoke here. We are trying to debate as to why some don't want these weapons when it would mean another opportunity to hunt or put another hunter in the woods, which is good.
I too have no dog in this fight because i wont hunt with one if they are legalized but i cant see any reason not to legalize them for the others that would. h.h.
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Post by mbogo on Dec 21, 2006 17:34:53 GMT -5
You sure make a habit of calling people ignorant. Having different priorities doesn't make someone ignorant or incapable of learning a new weapon if they choose to. IMO, those who willfully and intentionally blur the facts of this situation are a step below those you readily call ignorant. We're up to 8 pages on this discussion now and we have heard that pistol caliber rifles shouldn't be allowed because they are both too superior and too inferior, lol. The only thing I'm getting from them is that we shouldn't have pistol caliber rifles simply because they don't want them. Whatever some people want should apparently trump all reason I guess. Same old crap different debate.
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Post by Woody Williams on Dec 21, 2006 18:08:35 GMT -5
I think the chasm here is the amount of deer hunters that we deem to be " ignorant".
There is no doubt in my mind that some are very ignorant about deer hunting, guns, regulations , etc, etc, etc.
However, I do not believe that are anywhere close to a majority. I believe that the actual percentage of them is very low. At least in my area.
I think this is one area that we will have to agree to disagree as it is all in our own personal perceptions.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Dec 21, 2006 18:44:04 GMT -5
I tend to think the bigest problem with "hunter ignorance" (as opposed to slob deer shooters or dedicated Hunters) is based on how few hunters learn from dedicated hunters. If they get taught by anyone at all, they are forced to "learn" from people who developed bad habits on their own or who also are not dedicated hunters. Bad habits get transmitted more easily than good ones can be developed.
This is why I'm so adamant about the need for dedicated hunters to teach someone the right way to hunt - rather than the (in person anyway) standoffish and almost paranoid attitude I've seen when you ask somone about how they hunt and why they are successful.
Too many people treat their hunting experience as a Trade Secret rather than a Legacy to be handed to the next generation.
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Post by hunter480 on Dec 21, 2006 23:47:19 GMT -5
I`ve been gone for a little while, and the question is-will you hunt with a pistol caliber rifle-
The same one`s seem to be stirring the pot, with no real insight to impart-
but, YES-I`ll hunt with a pistol caliber rifle-in fact, I`ve already purchased a Winchester 94 in .44 mag and can`t wait until I can deer hunt with it.
And for those who seem to imply that only women and children will be interested in these rifles should they become available to us to use-NONSENSE-I`m 6'4" and currently 275 lbs, so the recoil of large arms do not frighten me, nor beat me up-but-I relish the thought of being able to kill deer in my home state of Indiana with a lever action carbine. Come on-who wouldn`t salivate at the prospect?
There is NO reason to fear or oppose these rifles for deer hunting in Indiana, they pose NO threat to public safety, nor to hunter safety, and are easily less potent if you will, than many arms currently legal for killing deer in this state.
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Post by lugnutz on Dec 22, 2006 0:05:26 GMT -5
I`ve been gone for a little while, and the question is-will you hunt with a pistol caliber rifle- The same one`s seem to be stirring the pot, with no real insight to impart- but, YES-I`ll hunt with a pistol caliber rifle-in fact, I`ve already purchased a Winchester 94 in .44 mag and can`t wait until I can deer hunt with it. And for those who seem to imply that only women and children will be interested in these rifles should they become available to us to use-NONSENSE-I`m 6'4" and currently 275 lbs, so the recoil of large arms do not frighten me, nor beat me up-but-I relish the thought of being able to kill deer in my home state of Indiana with a lever action carbine. Come on-who wouldn`t salivate at the prospect? There is NO reason to fear or oppose these rifles for deer hunting in Indiana, they pose NO threat to public safety, nor to hunter safety, and are easily less potent if you will, than many arms currently legal for killing deer in this state. I agree,,,why wouldn' t anyone use them? If its not your thing so be it. Opprotunities would be the same for everyone.
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Post by jackryan on Dec 22, 2006 2:24:19 GMT -5
[quote author=mbogo board=deerhunting thread=1166456067 post=1166740493 The only thing I'm getting from them is that we shouldn't have pistol caliber rifles simply because they don't want them. Whatever some people want should apparently trump all reason I guess. Same old crap different debate.[/quote] It's exactly the same reason why people want them, just because they want them. I guess the people who whine the loudest should trump all reason, eh? They like to compare the kick to a 12 gauge when they are selling them for women and children but then they like to compare to a 410 when they are selling how efficient they are. Then in the next sentence the rifle salesmen will tell how marginal the 410 is that they just used as a yard stick to claim thier 357 or 44 mag is plenty good. Do these people really think they are some kind of wizard and nobody else can read or has ever used these weapons? They act like every one but them is stupid yet then they jump on the next guy who actually has the nerve to spit out the truth or near to it and states a more than fair number of people purchasing a deer license are amazingly ignorant of the task at hand. God save us all if these Indiana boards really do represent the cream of the crop of Indiana hunters.
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Post by weasel1134 on Dec 22, 2006 6:39:14 GMT -5
What a waste of time!This issue will have absolutely no impact on our deer herd,safety or the quality of the hunting experience as you will get what you put into it.Neither side is going to convince the other that they are right. I would suggest that this thread be locked due to the fact that a meaningful reasoned debate on this subject is obviously not going to take place. The post are getting personal and sarcastic and is turning into a vicious circle.
On a different note. I hope you all have a great Christmas. I am out!
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Post by Decatur on Dec 22, 2006 7:19:15 GMT -5
[/quote]Hay Irorsight...You a Hunter or Just a Shooter? When was your last Deer kill or any game Kill??? I think i remember you saying TWO YEARS....really [/quote] What's that have to do with this discussion?
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Post by DEERTRACKS on Dec 22, 2006 7:24:42 GMT -5
Hay Irorsight...You a Hunter or Just a Shooter? When was your last Deer kill or any game Kill??? I think i remember you saying TWO YEARS....really I am a shooter and wildcatter by avocation, largely because in the past 20 years I have not lived in any one state longer than 6 years. I simply haven't had the opportunity to either learn the terrain or establish relationships with land owners/other hunters. So, no, without paying some "outfitter" a couple of grand, and with special interest groups actively trying to limit my opportunities to hunt, I haven't hunted since I left Alaska in 95 and haven't killed a deer since 85. (And that one I took with a single shot from an iron sighted Savage 99E Lever in .308 Winchester.) But I hardly see what that has to do with a basic knowledge of firearms and trajectories or purposefully trying to scare people into believing somthing that isn't true. Well put!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by greghopper on Dec 22, 2006 7:30:12 GMT -5
Hay Irorsight...You a Hunter or Just a Shooter? When was your last Deer kill or any game Kill??? I think i remember you saying TWO YEARS....really [/quote] What's that have to do with this discussion?[/quote]Lots.....
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Post by dbd870 on Dec 22, 2006 8:37:17 GMT -5
Yeah, maybe this thread does need locked.
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