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Post by swilk on Oct 27, 2006 12:34:46 GMT -5
And no it is not just a continuation of a thought it is exactly what and how you feel. You made that apperant in your first comment about wishing that brown and down hunters should be regulated so that they would not shoot that little deer. Dec and most of the other admitted big antler hunters are not near the antler elitist that you seem to be. Easy there fella. Yep, I like antlers. And I have also said I would never tell anyone that they shouldnt shoot a small buck. Or I will never tell a meat hunter that they shouldnt shoot the first deer to come along. We are having a discussion of opinions. I can voice my opinion while we are doing so .... but Im not going to jump onto another thread to tell a fellow hunter "why did you shoot that little thing" .... or anything else like that. I have several brown and down friends. More of them than any other type. I help them track whatever they have shot and I congratulate them no matter if it is a spike, forky or bigger buck. They are doing what makes them happy and that is all that matters. But, for the topic we are conversing about, I will voice my opinion. AND ...... like I said before, body weight and antler size have nothing to do with maturity. Age and age alone. A 6 or 7 year old buck is mature as is a 4 year old buck. A 1.5 year old and a 2.5 year old buck are not considered mature.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2006 12:51:28 GMT -5
No. Clarifying that maturity has nothing to do with body weight is not arguing. I dont know when the last time I saw a 120lb 5 year old deer ... but I see 170lb 1.5 and 2.5 year old deer each year. And in spite of their larger body size they are not mature. Body size, body shape, and to a lesser extent, antler size are really the only things you can use to estimate the age of a deer on the hoof. Some guys are pretty accurate at looking at a deer and saying "that is a 2.5 year old" and some aren't. The only way to get a reasonably accurate age of the deer is to get a look at their choppers, and I have yet to convince a live deer to say "ahhhh" for me. I would have to say that the best way to guess at a live deer's age would have to be body size and shape.
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Post by dec on Oct 27, 2006 12:54:04 GMT -5
Cleetus, there are a bunch of ways to make an educated guess at a mature buck in the field. It takes a lot of time studying documented pictures and a lot of time in the field making mental notes. In time, it gets easier to tell rough age of a deer. Body size and the way they carry themselves is the key indicator. Depending on the time of year, though a 6 to 7 year old Indiana deer should dress out at much more than 162#. Not saying you did not shoot one that old, but I personally know of one two years ago that was aged by a biologist and a taxidermist after the shot. The buck was aged at 8 1/2 years old, sported a 124" 7 point rack (small), and field dressed over 250#. It was a pig of a deer. Last year, my buddy shot a 153" deer that the taxidermist aged at 5 1/2 years by tooth wear and skull plate thickness. It field dressed at over 230#. A couple years ago, I shot a 9 pointer that aged at 4 1/2 years old. It field dressed at 195# as the rut was winding down. Two years before that I shot an 3 1/2 year old 8 pointer that field dressed at 225#, before the rut kicked in. Generally, bucks tend to get heavier with age (just like me ). Time of the year impacts weight as well. Generally, bucks racks get bigger with age, until they take a downward turn at 7 1/2 or so. Some bucks never grow big racks to begin with. It is easy for some to think a buck is older then it is. Then again, every whitetail is different and time of year in harvest can really make a difference it trying to judge an older buck from a younger buck.
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Post by swilk on Oct 27, 2006 12:57:49 GMT -5
Metamorahunter:
Yep. Never said how a hunter was supposed to "guess" the age. Only said that age determines maturity.
Body length, shape of the chest and belly, length of snout .... those are the "on the hoof" characteristics I use to "guess".
IMO it only gets difficult when you are talking 3.5 or older. Yearlings to 2.5 years old are fairly easy to guess. I never even remotely consider antler size or points when trying to determine age. I have seen some 1.5 - 2.5 yo bucks with really impressive antlers. And I have seen mature deer with less than impressive racks.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 27, 2006 12:59:30 GMT -5
Keep on topic guys. Nothing personal please
IMHO -
Weight or size of the rack is not a good indicator of maturity in whitetail bucks.
I've seen some fat 1 1/2 year olds that would weigh out at 160 or better. I've also seen some skinny older bucks - past their prime.
Gentics has more to do with the size of the rack than just about anything else. If the genetics are not there it doesn't matter how old the buck gets.
Booners are few and far between no matter where you are at.
It is generally recognized that a whitetail buck doesn't reach maturity until 4 1/2 years old.
You can liken a 1 1/2 year old buck to a teenager. In breeding season they sometimes act like a teenager, don't they?
It still boils down to we are hunting to please only ourselves and to heck what someone else thinks what we should shoot - yearling buck or an old grand dad.
It is all our choice..
.
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Post by swilk on Oct 27, 2006 13:01:58 GMT -5
Im not implying that a hunter should know how to age a deer on the hoof. Im not saying they should spend the time to learn how to accurately guesstimate age.
What I am saying is ... I wouldnt use the word mature unless i knew what it meant and how to determine if a deer meets the criteria.
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Post by cleetus on Oct 27, 2006 13:02:59 GMT -5
Well put Woody.....Now let's all go have a beer and talk about shooting them whitetails!!!!
WHO'S WITH ME???
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Post by swilk on Oct 27, 2006 13:05:04 GMT -5
Its almost beer-thirty.
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Post by cleetus on Oct 27, 2006 13:10:21 GMT -5
Swilk said...What I am saying is ... I wouldn't use the word mature unless i knew what it meant and how to determine if a deer meets the criteria.
Like I said, my definition of mature and your definition of mature are different. I am not telling you that your's is wrong or correcting you. The post was about going after antlered deer or not. Not what makes a deer mature or not.
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Post by wapahiti on Oct 27, 2006 13:11:21 GMT -5
How about a beer from bernies?
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 27, 2006 13:11:40 GMT -5
Swilk said...What I am saying is ... I wouldn't use the word mature unless i knew what it meant and how to determine if a deer meets the criteria. Like I said, my definition of mature and your definition of mature are different. I am not telling you that your's is wrong or correcting you. The post was about going after antlered deer or not. Not what makes a deer mature or not. I thought we were having a cold one? .
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Post by swilk on Oct 27, 2006 13:13:46 GMT -5
uumm.. you cant change a words definition just because it suits your ideals better.
I swear your honor, that 16 year old girl was mature. I mean, she weighed more than her mom and she had a nice rack.
lol ... doesnt really work ... does it?
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Post by swilk on Oct 27, 2006 13:15:01 GMT -5
[/quote] I thought we were having a cold one? . [/quote] God I wish. 4:30 wont come soon enough.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2006 13:20:35 GMT -5
I swear your honor, that 16 year old girl was mature. I mean, she weighed more than her mom and she had a nice rack. lol ... doesnt really work ... does it? YIKES!!!!!! What an interesting (and hilarious) analogy!
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Post by cleetus on Oct 27, 2006 13:20:47 GMT -5
BERNIES!!!!!! ;D
Now we're talking.
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 27, 2006 13:23:56 GMT -5
I think the people who are apposed to the OBR might possibly be more "antler junkies" than those who support it. They are happy to kill any buck ... and want to kill more than one. If it werent about antlers then why not shoot a doe? An immature buck is the second easiest deer to kill. IMO they are very little challenge. After a yearling comes the 1.5 - 2.5 yo bucks. Gullible, predictable and easily fooled. Hunter480 .... rabbit season doesnt come in until second week of November. How do you suppose that the one rabbit hunter, 6 weeks into deer season, is responsible for your not seeing deer? Did you not bowhunt the 6 weeks prior to rabbit season opening? How many hours have you put in hunting this year? Have you seen any deer? Hard to believe what you are telling me. swilk-i really don`t care if you believe what I`ve told you or not-I don`t require your approval and I have no reason to lie-and DO NOT lie. I was attempting to answer your question and be polite about it-but at this point I think our conversation is probably through.
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Post by swilk on Oct 27, 2006 13:25:46 GMT -5
Ok. No problem.
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 27, 2006 13:39:08 GMT -5
I offered up a post to dec, trying to extend the olive branch as it were, and wound up upsetting him anyway. I guess I don`t know how to make peace with some folks. Hey man, it is all cool. I wake up on the wrong side of the bed just like everyone else some mornings. Some days I will defend trophy hunting and the OBR to the Nth degree, some days I let is slide off my back. At the end of the day, I respect everyone for their hunting choices they make. To answer the original question without trying to offend. I'll make this input and hopefully this will remain civil. The OBR introduction was brought on by a relatively small group of people and was pretty much forced on the State as a whole. And THAT and THAT alone is where much of the resentment about OBR stems. Now personally, I was a little suspect of it at first about OBR. I was living my deer hunting life practicing a self imposed QDM program and out trying to educate those that hunt the general area around me about what QDM could do for us. Now please don't confuse OBR with QDM! OBR can be a tool in the tool box of QDM, but it is not QDM by itself. Long story short, I've got a great QDM program working with the support of the majority of the surrounding property hunters and we are all reaping the benefits of it. I think what does not make sense to some is as an admitted antler junkie, such as myself, then why not desire to shoot more than one mature buck per year? Now this is just me answering this. I'm one opinion out of 250,000. I am the type that can not understand the "need" that some people feel to "hunt" (or ultimately kill) 2 bucks per year. I just don't get it. I "hunt" bucks all year, regardless if I have a tag or not in my pocket. BUT I only pull the trigger on one or none per year. That is my choice. A choice that I arguably had prior to OBR, during OBR, and should OBR ever go away. BUT what I feel OBR has done, is in general, made the "on the fence" multi-weapon hunter more selective. Has it hurt the multi-weapon "brown and downers", sure. Has it hurt anyone else ... not in my opinion. There are plenty of does out there to stack in the freezer for meat. I put my 3 to 4 in the freezer every year. To me there is a bigger rush out of letting a small buck walk then releasing an arrow at him. Just last night I let a nice basket 8 pointer at 10 yards walk. Brings a smile to my face every time. This year I've seen 3 bucks that I consider "shooters", all from the high 130's to the high 140's. One I purposely let walk at 10 yards because I was second guessing myself. The other two, just have not offered up the shot yet and they may not, I'm fine with that. As for the fascination with antlers, since the dawn of time, man has been fascinated with antlers. It is in our very blood ... at least most of us. I can see the anti-obr and even the anti-trophy hunting side of things. I can see why they are mad. What I don't like, is to be made out as a bad guy because I fall into the OBR or trophy hunter class. I've made a few comments in the past that I do regret, purely out of frustration because I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall. But it gets real hard to sit around read posts about the evils of big antlers without taking it personally. I live and breath three things in my life. God, my family, and hunting. For me, there is nothing else that matters to much beyond those three things. I don't know if I've answered any questions or not, but maybe it gives a few of you a little insight into my brain and how it works. Some I'm sure have me figured out, probably better then I have myself. dec-good deal man-I was hoping it was all good-and I really appreciate all that you`ve said. I was confused earlier about what exactly QDM is-as are, I think, a lot of hunters-since some who are actually espousing trophy deer management are saying they`re practicing QDM. I "met" a friend on the Deer & Deer Hunting forum and went through the confusion of the QDM/trophy management thing, but he got me to understand that while QDM does emphasize taking more does and attempting to alter the age structure of the bucks, in essense, it really isn`t trophy deer management-and I really like and respect this guy. Having said all that-just me personally-I don`t believe that the age structure of the bucks in any given area need to be manipulated-BUT-I did learn to respect this guy, and it sounds like you are cut from the same fabric. Glad we can disagree and still be cool.
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Post by LawrenceCoBowhunter on Oct 27, 2006 14:10:35 GMT -5
Just something neat I came up with on judging a buck.this was taken off my trail camera in almost the exact same spot,I just merged the photos.,You can tell a big difference in the 2 bucks.Just thought I would share it with you all.
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Post by jstalljon on Oct 27, 2006 14:21:31 GMT -5
That is sweet! What software do you use to do that?
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