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Post by Old Ironsights on Oct 26, 2006 15:20:19 GMT -5
I'm new enough to the Indiana/Midwest hunting scene to be thouroughly flummoxed by some of the responses I've seen by/about Trophy Hunting. While I won't pretend to understand the draw collecting antlers, I'm certainly not against it. Hell, given the identical probability of a clean kill on two equally bodied deer - one doe, one with a big rack, I certainly would shoot the "Big Buck". No reason to skip the bragging rights after all. I'm personally after the most meat I can get within the limited time I'm alloted by the State - whether that's one 300lb Monster or 3 110lb animals. But if someone wants to limit themselves to one "Big Buck" only it's no skin off my nose. But I just can't understand why the hard feelings I see expressed here sometimes. Is it just the OBR thing and the inherent distastefullness/dissention that Politics causes? My only objection to the OBR is that it cuts my chances of "making meat" in half... but then only if I only buy one tag or after I've already shot a buck - and if I've already shot one animal (buck or doe) I've got meat, so I can't complain too much. So I always buy an antlerless tag so I can take either shot. Anyway, could folks from "both sides" explain this all to me without ing at each other? Please?
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Post by swilk on Oct 26, 2006 16:28:37 GMT -5
I dont get into arguments about it one way or the other. I dont try and change anyones mind and they are not going to change mine.
That said ...... I see no reason to kill an immature buck. If you are a meat hunter kill a doe. If you want to kill a trophy buck then put in the time and hope for a little bit of luck.
The only time I could see a reason to kill an immature buck is if you are a meat hunter and you kill the first deer that comes along. If that first animal happens to be an immature buck ... so be it. I wouldnt personally do it but to each his own.
IMO ..... and this is just my opinion .... there is no reason to kill an immature buck unless you just have to kill an animal with a penis.
The OBR IMO ... and again this is my opinion .... has helped the Indiana deer herd. I have no data other than personal experiences to back this up. And nobody can produce any data that says it has hurt anything. Again ... I personally like it.
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Post by shinglemonkey on Oct 26, 2006 17:05:28 GMT -5
I see it as some people have nothing else to look forward to in there lives. There one thing for them to keep living has been altered by someone other than them and they dont like it.
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Post by hunter7x on Oct 26, 2006 17:23:57 GMT -5
I also like the OBR but I won't argue with anyone about it either. Actually in my circle of hunting friends no one here dislikes it either. We all see it as a way to extend our hunting seasons and I for one have killed the 4 biggest bucks of my 24 year hunting career in the last 4 years.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Oct 26, 2006 17:44:55 GMT -5
I see it as some people have nothing else to look forward to in there lives. There one thing for them to keep living has been altered by someone other than them and they dont like it. I'm trying to decide if you are being serious or snide. What exactly do you mean? If you mean the OBR, how did it alter what, and why would people who support the OBR feel defensive about Trophy hunting?
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Post by shinglemonkey on Oct 26, 2006 17:56:19 GMT -5
Im serious.
I honesty dont care and dont even hold deer hunting that high on my list.
The people that talk the loudest are people whos whole life is wraped around deer hunting.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Oct 26, 2006 19:09:36 GMT -5
Ah. Well I hold cervid (deer/moose/elk/carabou?) hunting #1 on my list, but I'm puzzled by the emotionsthat Trophy hunting/OBR generate on this and other sites.
So, I'm interested in what/why the others who "wrap their whole life around deer huntng" say.
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Post by indianahick on Oct 26, 2006 19:51:27 GMT -5
Ironsites-here it is in a nutshell. At one time you could get a buck with archery equipment and then get one with firearms. Or as they like to say two buck rule. Somewhere in the middle when they brought in handguns they printed all licenses so that you could take a buck with it. You could buy Archery, Shotgun, Handgun, Muzzle Loader and take one with each not counting draw hunts for each type. This was bad. Some where in the mid 90's they also installed the antlerless tags, which ends up getting a bunch of buttons killed. The rub with to the obr rule is that it penalizes the multi season hunter, Archery, firearms, Ml. Trophy hunters laud it as they think it was made for them and in a way it was. Although its institution came about because of work of those that want to be and are guides and pen hunt places. Who state that lots of record book bucks will bring in out of state hunters which will infuse the coffers of the DNR from the sale of licenses. But we all know whose coffers it will actually infuse.
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 26, 2006 20:02:08 GMT -5
I am one that absolutely "lives" to deer hunt-don`t care about the antlers, other than the fact that any one of us would enjoy killing a bruiser of a buck with a good rack-as I`ve pointed out numerous times, there is "something" about antlers that makes us all go ga-ga. I`m primarily a meat hunter however, and I get a thrill out of killing a forkhorn or a basket 8, because it`s killing a buck.
To the points I read about not seeing the reasoning behind killing immature bucks, and about simply killing does if a meat hunter-
1) I`m not into trophy deer management, I don`t like where it`s taken, and still is taking deer hunting, and I strongly dislike having someone else’s trophy management forced on me. I will kill whatever I wish to kill ethically and legally, and it`s only my concern.
2) Some on here make it sound as though all it takes is heading to the ol` woodlot, plop down on the nearest stump, put in 15 minutes and pick out the doe you want for the freezer-maybe some have it like that-I don`t. My hunting partner and I saw only 3 deer all last season-archery, firearms and muzzleloader, and we killed 2 of the 3 we saw. His was a yearling 6 pointer and mine was a mature doe-we both were excited, as well as grateful that we had collected venison, and we enjoyed the season, even though we sat an awful lot of hours, not seeing many deer. Had my partner passed on his buck, he would have gone without venison-but thankfully, he isn`t into the trophy mania either and he didn`t hesitate to take the shot when it presented itself.
And this is the very last time I`m going to say this-and only this time because this question was asked yet again-many of us are upset about the obr because it wasn`t a change that was made for the health or benefit of the herd-it was simply to pacify a very vocal group that had no conscience about having their deer management handed down to all of us, trophy hunters or not. Something was taken from us-the OPPORTUNITY to kill 2 bucks per season, and we simply resent that.
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Post by swilk on Oct 26, 2006 20:22:50 GMT -5
Just a thought. If you killed the only male and one of the 2 female deer you saw how is that doing the herd any good in your particular hunting spot?
There are 2 scenarios ... either the deer numbers really are tha low in your area and all you did was make it worse.
Or .... there are more deer around and you just werent lucky enough to find them. In that case you did well to harvest what you did.
So ... did you irresponsibly damage the herd or were you unlucky for the entire season?
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Post by Old Ironsights on Oct 26, 2006 20:24:46 GMT -5
Ok. That makes sense. (Both of your comments). Nobody likes being dictated to. I know I don't.
Looking otherwhere I had noticed that there were/are an inordinate number of guide-types who are vehemently "for" the OBR. As you say, follow the money.
So why then do OBR supporters/Trophy hunters get so defensive?
For example, I don't feel the need to get defensive in my support for the Pistol Carbine rule, because I can back it up with irrefutable data/basic math.
Somthing was taken away from the general population of hunters. I can understand tat frustration.
But why is Trophy side so defensive?
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 26, 2006 21:28:06 GMT -5
Ok. That makes sense. (Both of your comments). Nobody likes being dictated to. I know I don't. Looking otherwhere I had noticed that there were/are an inordinate number of guide-types who are vehemently "for" the OBR. As you say, follow the money. So why then do OBR supporters/Trophy hunters get so defensive? For example, I don't feel the need to get defensive in my support for the Pistol Carbine rule, because I can back it up with irrefutable data/basic math. Somthing was taken away from the general population of hunters. I can understand tat frustration. But why is Trophy side so defensive? I wish I knew what to say about that-I offered up a post to dec, trying to extend the olive branch as it were, and wound up upsetting him anyway. I guess I don`t know how to make peace with some folks.
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 26, 2006 21:33:15 GMT -5
Just a thought. If you killed the only male and one of the 2 female deer you saw how is that doing the herd any good in your particular hunting spot? There are 2 scenarios ... either the deer numbers really are tha low in your area and all you did was make it worse. Or .... there are more deer around and you just werent lucky enough to find them. In that case you did well to harvest what you did. So ... did you irresponsibly damage the herd or were you unlucky for the entire season? I`m guessing that you know the answer to that question before you ever asked me-it isn`t possible that those are the only deer there, and I do know that the herd in that general area is healthy and there are plenty of animals. The problem is, the 2 small farms my buddy and I have to hunt are his In-Laws land, and their son gave his boss permission to rabbit hunt both spots, so every many days during hunting season, this guy is in the woods, running his beagles, and running the deer out of their bedding areas. The deer are there, and if left undisterbed, we`d be able to kill them, we have them patterned reasonably well-it`s just the rabbit hunter kills it for us. This guy was in both woods rabbit hunting for 10 straight days during the heart of firearms season, and we`re powerless to keep him out.
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Post by swilk on Oct 26, 2006 21:55:08 GMT -5
Why would you want to keep him out? That would take away from his opportunity to kill rabbits.
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Post by hunter480 on Oct 26, 2006 22:47:32 GMT -5
Why would you want to keep him out? That would take away from his opportunity to kill rabbits. Well, let`s see............ My deer hunting doesn`t interfer with his opportunity to kill rabbits-his killing rabbits does interfer with my opportunities to kill deer-he could wait until muzzleloader season is out, and he still has 2 full months to rabbit hunt where I deer hunt. PS-he has other areas he can rabbit hunt too. As an aside-it didn`t sit too well with me when he casually mentioned to my hunting partner and I that he and his father had killed 11 rabbits between them the day before-I casually asked him if he had ever noticed the TIP frame on my license plate-he didn`t want to talk anymore.
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Post by Decatur on Oct 27, 2006 6:27:21 GMT -5
You should have turned him in!
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Post by DEERTRACKS on Oct 27, 2006 7:06:32 GMT -5
Each of us has a mindset on the OBR that will not change. As for me, I do not support the OBR because I enjoy the challenge of taking bucks. And no, I am not an antler worshiper, as I have taken many early season does & small bucks for the freezer. I do not have my own hunting ground, so I am always hunting private or public ground and the established deer gene pool of those areas. Most of the time the other hunters that I share these hunting spots with are out to just fill a tag, so food plots, & "let em walk" is useless. For the folks that support OBR, and apparently have multiple opportunities for the big rascals thats fine, and my hat is off to them. As for me, the areas I hunt have multiple hunters, and consistently seeing, let alone legally shooting mature bucks is a rarity. The OBR makes it a toughy when I decide to pass on a shot that I may not get later in the season. Having that second buck opportunity sure would take some of the pressure off of the early season "shoot or don't shoot" decisions.
Very good post Ironsights.
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Post by dec on Oct 27, 2006 7:06:58 GMT -5
I offered up a post to dec, trying to extend the olive branch as it were, and wound up upsetting him anyway. I guess I don`t know how to make peace with some folks. Hey man, it is all cool. I wake up on the wrong side of the bed just like everyone else some mornings. Some days I will defend trophy hunting and the OBR to the Nth degree, some days I let is slide off my back. At the end of the day, I respect everyone for their hunting choices they make. To answer the original question without trying to offend. I'll make this input and hopefully this will remain civil. The OBR introduction was brought on by a relatively small group of people and was pretty much forced on the State as a whole. And THAT and THAT alone is where much of the resentment about OBR stems. Now personally, I was a little suspect of it at first about OBR. I was living my deer hunting life practicing a self imposed QDM program and out trying to educate those that hunt the general area around me about what QDM could do for us. Now please don't confuse OBR with QDM! OBR can be a tool in the tool box of QDM, but it is not QDM by itself. Long story short, I've got a great QDM program working with the support of the majority of the surrounding property hunters and we are all reaping the benefits of it. I think what does not make sense to some is as an admitted antler junkie, such as myself, then why not desire to shoot more than one mature buck per year? Now this is just me answering this. I'm one opinion out of 250,000. I am the type that can not understand the "need" that some people feel to "hunt" (or ultimately kill) 2 bucks per year. I just don't get it. I "hunt" bucks all year, regardless if I have a tag or not in my pocket. BUT I only pull the trigger on one or none per year. That is my choice. A choice that I arguably had prior to OBR, during OBR, and should OBR ever go away. BUT what I feel OBR has done, is in general, made the "on the fence" multi-weapon hunter more selective. Has it hurt the multi-weapon "brown and downers", sure. Has it hurt anyone else ... not in my opinion. There are plenty of does out there to stack in the freezer for meat. I put my 3 to 4 in the freezer every year. To me there is a bigger rush out of letting a small buck walk then releasing an arrow at him. Just last night I let a nice basket 8 pointer at 10 yards walk. Brings a smile to my face every time. This year I've seen 3 bucks that I consider "shooters", all from the high 130's to the high 140's. One I purposely let walk at 10 yards because I was second guessing myself. The other two, just have not offered up the shot yet and they may not, I'm fine with that. As for the fascination with antlers, since the dawn of time, man has been fascinated with antlers. It is in our very blood ... at least most of us. I can see the anti-obr and even the anti-trophy hunting side of things. I can see why they are mad. What I don't like, is to be made out as a bad guy because I fall into the OBR or trophy hunter class. I've made a few comments in the past that I do regret, purely out of frustration because I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall. But it gets real hard to sit around read posts about the evils of big antlers without taking it personally. I live and breath three things in my life. God, my family, and hunting. For me, there is nothing else that matters to much beyond those three things. I don't know if I've answered any questions or not, but maybe it gives a few of you a little insight into my brain and how it works. Some I'm sure have me figured out, probably better then I have myself.
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Post by shinglemonkey on Oct 27, 2006 7:25:06 GMT -5
Dec when you say brought to a small group, do you mean one of the only groups that are organized and vocal on the political forefront in Indiana?
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Post by dec on Oct 27, 2006 7:39:19 GMT -5
Dec when you say brought to a small group, do you mean one of the only groups that are organized and vocal on the political forefront in Indiana? As I understand it, yes. When OBR was first proposed, I had no clue what OBR was, what internet forums were, what these organized groups were, etc. I'm just a bystander in this, really. I'd have to go back and do a search to find out which group pushed it through. I think I know off the top of my head, but I'm not going to say it in fear of A) being wrong and B) re-opening a debate on who and how it got passed. I'm sure someone will chime in on who got pushed hard for it. If I'm wrong and off base, then I apologize.
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