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May 9, 2007 12:01:00 GMT -5
Post by DEERTRACKS on May 9, 2007 12:01:00 GMT -5
A tanker truck driver friend of mine for one of the big oil companies tells me gasoline sold at many stations is actually 83 - 84 octane as ethanol is mixed in with the gasoline at the plants. He also says that pounds of fuel being delivered to the gas stations has dropped off, indicating that less fuel is being purchased by the public.
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May 9, 2007 18:09:09 GMT -5
Post by steiny on May 9, 2007 18:09:09 GMT -5
Johnsmiles - You asked "And, just exactly what changes do you suggest I, or anyone else, instill into our lives to offset the soaring price of gas?"
Lot's of things a guy could do: Carpool to work. Drive a high mileage automobile. Relocate to a home closer to work. Walk places. Ride a bike places. Adopt the Amish lifestyle. Move to a metro area where you can walk to work. Move to Venezuela where gas is under fifty cents per gallon. Learn a new skill so you can make more money. Take night classes to educate yourself, so you can make more money. Grow 50% of your food in a garden so you have more money for gas. If you are a two car family, get rid of one car. Get rid of cable TV, internet, cell phones, magazines, or other unnecessary monthly bills so you have more money for gas. This list could go on and on .........
Grant it, some of these choices would be difficult or impractical, but you do have these options and a many, many others. Nobody holds a gun to our head and forces us to buy gas, we are all just married to the automobile driven lifestyle. My buddies daughter lives in Minneapolis and they choose to not even own a car, because it is a big hassle, expensive, parking is tough, etc. They walk and commute to work, and fly to Indy and rent a car when they come visit the folks. We are going to see a lot more of that in the future, much like Europe.
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May 9, 2007 19:36:14 GMT -5
Post by cambygsp on May 9, 2007 19:36:14 GMT -5
I think thats the complaint Steiny,
We have to adjust our lifestyles just so we can fill our tanks. It may not be that big of a deal to you but for some folks the price of gas has put a real damper on life.
Fuel prices are involved in the price of everything, food has to be shipped, farmers have to buy fuel for their tractors, property taxes go up because government enties burn fuel, so on and so on!
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May 9, 2007 19:50:03 GMT -5
Post by huxbux on May 9, 2007 19:50:03 GMT -5
Just a few comments:
1- Gasoline has not increased in price as much as almost every other product has over the last 20 years.
2- Government does have something to do with the price of gas because of the huge taxes they collect from it. It's a huge source of income for them and it's against their interests to reduce the consumption of gasoline.
3- We here in the US pay a LOT less for our gas than all but the oil-rich countries.
4- There is no shortage of oil, nor will there be for at least the next 300 years at the present rate of consumption. There IS a shortage of refining capacity. No new refineries have been built in the US since 1979 if I recall correctly. Could be a profit motive by the oil companies, but I strongly suspect the EPA has made it difficult, if not nearly impossible to build one these days.
5- Hybrid vehicles fuel mileage is highly inflated and the government has forced auto makers to scale back their mileage estimates to truthful levels. They get no better mileage than conventional vehicles in stop-and-go traffic.
6- In the US we're using more gas every year. Obviously, we are still willing to pay the price, because according to the insurance companies, the average mileage driven per year, per vehicle is increasing.
7- Gas is too expensive
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May 9, 2007 22:21:01 GMT -5
Post by JohnSmiles on May 9, 2007 22:21:01 GMT -5
Just a few comments: 1- Gasoline has not increased in price as much as almost every other product has over the last 20 years. I have to completely disagree on that one. Gas was at $0.33 a gallon in the mid 60's, around $0.50 a gallon in the mid 70's, and close to $1.00 in the mid 80's. It is currently at $3.20, and has varied up and down well over a dollar in the last year alone. That is a 300% increase in 20 years, a 600% increase in 30 and almost 1000% increase in the last 40 years. Housing is the only thing I can think of that even comes close to this in terms of increased cost. Heck, I can buy a tv today for 1/2 what they cost 20 years ago with 10 times the picture quality. Or a calculater the size of my wallet that can do 1000 times what the first mass produced ones cost in the 70's, which were the size of a dvd case and an inche thick, for a couple bucks, whereas the first ones went for around $250.00 dollars. Food has maybe risen 30-50% in the last 20 years. Now, utilities, cable, phone services and such, on the other hand, are raping us and telling us to like it at the same time. If I could stand the thought of going back to dial up internet service, I would cancel my cable tomorrow. . . . . ;D
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May 9, 2007 22:50:23 GMT -5
Post by JohnSmiles on May 9, 2007 22:50:23 GMT -5
Johnsmiles - You asked "And, just exactly what changes do you suggest I, or anyone else, instill into our lives to offset the soaring price of gas?" Lot's of things a guy could do: Carpool to work. Drive a high mileage automobile. Relocate to a home closer to work. Walk places. Ride a bike places. Adopt the Amish lifestyle. Move to a metro area where you can walk to work. Move to Venezuela where gas is under fifty cents per gallon. Learn a new skill so you can make more money. Take night classes to educate yourself, so you can make more money. Grow 50% of your food in a garden so you have more money for gas. If you are a two car family, get rid of one car. Get rid of cable TV, internet, cell phones, magazines, or other unnecessary monthly bills so you have more money for gas. This list could go on and on ......... Grant it, some of these choices would be difficult or impractical, but you do have these options and a many, many others. Nobody holds a gun to our head and forces us to buy gas, we are all just married to the automobile driven lifestyle. My buddies daughter lives in Minneapolis and they choose to not even own a car, because it is a big hassle, expensive, parking is tough, etc. They walk and commute to work, and fly to Indy and rent a car when they come visit the folks. We are going to see a lot more of that in the future, much like Europe. I started to answer this one line item at a time, then simply gave up. Some are simply silly at best. And the rest only apply to certain people in certain circumstances. You simply do not understand that there really ARE people out there who cannot afford to do almost all the things you mentioned. While you cite many things people do that are very wasteful, that does not mean everyone does them. While you may think YOU can do without, you can't. The only person who could do without gas is the person who either already has, or has the money to buy, a large tract of tillable land. In other words, a person who can already afford the price of gas regardless. And walking is indeed a great option, under certain conditions. I too know people who do not own a car, and who also live in a large city. That works fine IN A LARGE CITY. It is useless in almost any other setting. Thinking you actually have a choice here is simply failing to look at the problem. Its not JUST the gas for our own cars. Shut the roads down for 2 weeks, and people will start to die. Everything you buy depends on gas, in one manner or another. That is indeed a gun pointed to almost everyones head.
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May 10, 2007 7:03:21 GMT -5
Post by drs on May 10, 2007 7:03:21 GMT -5
I was talking with a friend that works for one of the major gasoline companies last night, and he firmly believes that gas will hit $4.00 this year. He has worked in the business for 20+ years, so when he speaks I listen. I sure do hope that he is wrong!!!!!! I have a cousin, in the oil business, and he said we "ain't" seen nothing yet! If all go as predicted; $4 or higher prices can be expected by Fall. My cousin also said that Ethanol or so-called "Bio Fuels" are NOT the TOTAL answer.
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May 10, 2007 8:00:36 GMT -5
Post by LawrenceCoBowhunter on May 10, 2007 8:00:36 GMT -5
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May 10, 2007 8:41:24 GMT -5
Post by trapperdave on May 10, 2007 8:41:24 GMT -5
what burns my britches is when the oil barons tell us they have to charge these prices due to cost of oil yet they post PROFITS in the BILLIONS then turn and ask for government subsidies to build refineries and such...BULLCHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dont pee on my leg and tell me its raining!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I said it when the prices took their first jump well beyond $2, the oil companies learned that most will pay whatever they want to charge so here we are. Join the cause and dont buy gas on the 15 of May, the last time this was done prices dropped 30 cents over night. There's guys at work that have to spend over 20% of their paycheck just to get to work to earn that paycheck. BULLCHIT I say!!!!!!!
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May 10, 2007 9:23:07 GMT -5
Post by cambygsp on May 10, 2007 9:23:07 GMT -5
Johnsmiles - You asked "And, just exactly what changes do you suggest I, or anyone else, instill into our lives to offset the soaring price of gas?" Lot's of things a guy could do: Carpool to work. Drive a high mileage automobile. Relocate to a home closer to work. Walk places. Ride a bike places. Adopt the Amish lifestyle. Move to a metro area where you can walk to work. Move to Venezuela where gas is under fifty cents per gallon. Learn a new skill so you can make more money. Take night classes to educate yourself, so you can make more money. Grow 50% of your food in a garden so you have more money for gas. If you are a two car family, get rid of one car. Get rid of cable TV, internet, cell phones, magazines, or other unnecessary monthly bills so you have more money for gas. This list could go on and on ......... Grant it, some of these choices would be difficult or impractical, but you do have these options and a many, many others. Nobody holds a gun to our head and forces us to buy gas, we are all just married to the automobile driven lifestyle. My buddies daughter lives in Minneapolis and they choose to not even own a car, because it is a big hassle, expensive, parking is tough, etc. They walk and commute to work, and fly to Indy and rent a car when they come visit the folks. We are going to see a lot more of that in the future, much like Europe. are probabaly not complaining about fuel prices either. Heck, You could also start selling drugs to generate more income so you could afford to put gas in your tank. Bank robbers are probabaly not complaining about fuel prices either.
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May 10, 2007 10:14:25 GMT -5
Post by birddog on May 10, 2007 10:14:25 GMT -5
trapperdave....
I totally agree with what you say!!!!!! The problem is also the polititicans don't do a damn thing about it either,I sent Sen. Bayh and also Sen. Lugar e-mails complaining to them on more than one occasion about the high cost of gas and what I got back from Lugar was absolutely nothing and from Bayh at least I got a reponse from him but he wanted to carry it out saying he'd done this and he'd done that but the bottom line was he'd done nothing about lowering gas prices.......
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May 10, 2007 12:06:24 GMT -5
Post by indianahick on May 10, 2007 12:06:24 GMT -5
I always love it when some one say car pool it will save you gas. Okay Theoretically it will and it may if all you do is work 8-5 Monday- Friday. Car pooling will not work for someone with a variegated work schedule. Nor will it work well if one of the car poolers has to work overtime without notice. Ever worked in a place where they walked up and say you are working over until 8 or 9 tonight. NO Choice. Refusal can get you a new job. Elsewhere. Car pooling does not work if there are emergencies, or if someone becomes ill. Walking, riding a bike, taking metro transportation works only if you live in or close to a metropolitan area. For urban habitants it will not work. Going Amish- now that is a good joke too. Better check the rules of your subdivision abstracts. Most will not allow the keeping of horses. At present the only sure ways of driving a vehicle that is fuel efficient is to buy Japanese, or Volkswagens. Motor scooters, motor cycles, bicycles will only get you killed by large trucks.
While complaining about the price of fuel will not alleviate the cost or make it reduced, the great thing about this nation is that you have the right to complain about it and not have some government stooge knock on your door in the middle of the night and you disappear. Does not matter if it is fuel, the President, the congress, the obr, crossbows, bass boats, the death penalty. You have the right to complain. And personally I would like to thank my ancestors that fought way back then to give me that right.
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May 10, 2007 17:07:01 GMT -5
Post by steiny on May 10, 2007 17:07:01 GMT -5
Interesting reading .............
OK, what's the problem?
Oil is the problem. Oil is a finite resource.
What does that mean?
Think of it this way. Imagine an enormous tank, big enough to hold all the oil in the world. It took millions of years for nature to fill that tank, and nature has almost stopped making oil. So whatever is in that tank is all we've got. Each year, we keep pumping more and more oil out of that tank, and eventually it will all be gone.
Yeah, but we've got hundreds of years left, right?
Wrong. Experts can't agree on how much oil is left in the tank. It all depends on their estimates of how much oil has been found, how much oil is "undiscovered", and how much can ultimately be recovered. But all the estimates indicate that the tank is about half empty, and that we will run out of recoverable reserves before the end of this century! "Peak Oil" was once considered a novel theory, but it has recently gained widespread acceptance.
The world is currently consuming oil at the rate of 30.2 billion barrels per year. Based on the forecasts above, the "Pessimists" believe we will exhaust our reserves in 50 to 60 years, the "Probable" estimate is 80 years, and the "Optimistic" forecast is about 100 years. After world oil production peaks, it will decline rapidly as recovery becomes more difficult. By the end of this century, world oil production will be about equal to what it was in the years 1940 to 1950. If you want to check this out for yourself, you can read an assortment of articles by petroleum geologists, the Department of Energy, and other experts.
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May 10, 2007 19:27:01 GMT -5
Post by huxbux on May 10, 2007 19:27:01 GMT -5
Just a few comments: 1- Gasoline has not increased in price as much as almost every other product has over the last 20 years. I have to completely disagree on that one. Gas was at $0.33 a gallon in the mid 60's, around $0.50 a gallon in the mid 70's, and close to $1.00 in the mid 80's. It is currently at $3.20, and has varied up and down well over a dollar in the last year alone. That is a 300% increase in 20 years, a 600% increase in 30 and almost 1000% increase in the last 40 years. Housing is the only thing I can think of that even comes close to this in terms of increased cost. Heck, I can buy a tv today for 1/2 what they cost 20 years ago with 10 times the picture quality. Or a calculater the size of my wallet that can do 1000 times what the first mass produced ones cost in the 70's, which were the size of a dvd case and an inche thick, for a couple bucks, whereas the first ones went for around $250.00 dollars. Food has maybe risen 30-50% in the last 20 years. Now, utilities, cable, phone services and such, on the other hand, are raping us and telling us to like it at the same time. If I could stand the thought of going back to dial up internet service, I would cancel my cable tomorrow. . . . . ;D You might want to check out this link. www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.htmlPay particular attention to the price adjusted for inflation.
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May 10, 2007 20:07:08 GMT -5
Post by JohnSmiles on May 10, 2007 20:07:08 GMT -5
I have to completely disagree on that one. Gas was at $0.33 a gallon in the mid 60's, around $0.50 a gallon in the mid 70's, and close to $1.00 in the mid 80's. It is currently at $3.20, and has varied up and down well over a dollar in the last year alone. That is a 300% increase in 20 years, a 600% increase in 30 and almost 1000% increase in the last 40 years. Housing is the only thing I can think of that even comes close to this in terms of increased cost. Heck, I can buy a tv today for 1/2 what they cost 20 years ago with 10 times the picture quality. Or a calculater the size of my wallet that can do 1000 times what the first mass produced ones cost in the 70's, which were the size of a dvd case and an inche thick, for a couple bucks, whereas the first ones went for around $250.00 dollars. Food has maybe risen 30-50% in the last 20 years. Now, utilities, cable, phone services and such, on the other hand, are raping us and telling us to like it at the same time. If I could stand the thought of going back to dial up internet service, I would cancel my cable tomorrow. . . . . ;D You might want to check out this link. www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.htmlPay particular attention to the price adjusted for inflation. Car prices are the only thing I have thought of, besides housing, that have kept pace with the price of gas. I see the graph, and it does not in any way relate to inflation as it has affected me. If everything else had gone up as much OR MORE than gas prices, I think I would have noticed. In 30 years, guns prices may have maybe doubled at best overall, with some of course, due to various factors, gaining much more in value. Ammo for instance, withe the .22 as an example, used to be bought for $7.50 a brick on sale in the mid 70's. The same ammo can still be bought for $9.99 or less on sale now. Fishing lures have basically doubled in that same time frame, not counting the 'latest wiz bang gimmick' lures. You see, the price of gas drives influences other prices to some degree, but its not a 1:1 ratio. But any increase in gas price effects every level of our economy in some manner. And no graph or reference you can come up with will ever convince me the price of gas has 'stayed well below' the inflation levels of everything else. I do not have a photgraphic memory, but I know full well gas prices have climbed at a much faster rate than most other consumables.
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May 10, 2007 20:22:41 GMT -5
Post by Woody Williams on May 10, 2007 20:22:41 GMT -5
Retail Price of a Gallon of Gasoline in Virginia Compared to a Sample of Other Items, August 2005 Items $/gallon Gasoline - $2.51 Milk - $2.99 Coca-Cola - $2.84 Gatorade - $5.20 Evian Water - $5.60 Orange Juice - $6.64 Crisco Oil - $7.44 Perrier Water - $8.16 Snapple - $10.32 Scope Mouthwash - $27.20 Lemon Oil - $27.22 Olive Oil - $51.04 Shampoo - $40.44 Real Maple Syrup - $57.08 Jack Daniel's Bourbon - $101.12 Visine Eye Drops - $995.84 Nasacort Nasal Spray - $2,615.28 www.vpcga.com/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=152
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May 10, 2007 20:36:28 GMT -5
Post by huxbux on May 10, 2007 20:36:28 GMT -5
Jack Daniel's Bourbon - $101.12 Now THAT's a crime.
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May 10, 2007 21:28:36 GMT -5
Post by JohnSmiles on May 10, 2007 21:28:36 GMT -5
Jack Daniel's Bourbon - $101.12 Now THAT's a crime. The Milk and the Maple syrup, however, are well worth the price. ;D (It was $40.00 a gallon for Maple Syrup back in the 70's.) Especially if you have a plate of golden brown fried mush or some good pancakes sitting in front of you. . . .
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May 10, 2007 22:30:11 GMT -5
Post by tmarsh83 on May 10, 2007 22:30:11 GMT -5
David,
I think your friend is spot on about the "eco-fuels" it is a farse.
People say 99 cent gas again with ethanol...that is bs...if it were true they would have been making that profit when regular gas was 150 steady...
Farmers will get rich, outdoorsman will lose, and nothing will change.
It is MHO that coal gasification is what should be worked on. Hydrogen is an option eventually, but dirty coal can be made into semi-clean gas that will be much more cost effective than anything else, AND much greener when used as gasified fuel, than burnt for power anywhere.
I know several people very, VERY deep in the alternate fuels market, coal gasification, and hydrogen, this is where the federal dollars and private investing is going right now. Take my word for it...
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May 10, 2007 22:45:53 GMT -5
Post by trapperdave on May 10, 2007 22:45:53 GMT -5
legalize hemp and make fuel out of the seed oil, problem solved
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