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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 13, 2006 12:51:39 GMT -5
South Bend Tribune article August 13. 2006 6:59AM Hoosiers seeing bigger bucksCOMMENTARY LOUIE STOUT Is the experimental one-buck limit responsible for the mature deer hunters have been taking the past few years? That depends upon whom you ask. Biologists say no, that it's purely a social regulation to pacify hunters who want less hunting pressure on bucks. Hunters -- or at least some of them -- believe it does. They say that reducing buck harvest produces more big bucks over the long haul, and statistics indicate there are more heavy antlered deer roaming the countryside these days. The one-buck rule is now being discussed in Michigan. The concept was shot down this summer but will likely resurface again in 2007. It's been an Indiana law for four years of a five-year experiment. Presently, if you kill a buck during the early bow season, you can shoot only antlerless deer thereafter. Prior to the experiment, you could take a buck with a bow and a gun during the November season. Dr. Jim Mitchell, Indiana's deer biologist, says there are more older adult bucks roaming Indiana today. But not because of the one-buck rule. "This trend has been developing for 10 years," he said. "The rate of change has not been significant since the implementation of the one-buck rule." And now that there is only one year left on the experiment, Hoosier hunters are being asked their opinions of the one-buck law in a survey mailed to 15,000 licensed deer hunters. "We know there isn't a biological need for the regulation," Dr. Mitchell explained. "Is it having a biological effect? We won't know unless we go back to the former regulation (one buck with a bow, one with a gun). That could tell us if the increase in mature bucks is due to a natural trend or a result of the one-buck rule." Dr. Mitchell concedes that the percentage of young bucks in the antlered deer harvest has dropped from 65 percent in the 1990s to about 50 percent currently. That would suggest that more mature bucks are showing up in the harvest, and one might assume that's because fewer yearlings are being killed and given more time to mature. The record books also bear that out. The Indiana Deer Hunters Association, which oversees the Hoosier Record Book, says the number of qualifying deer it has received have doubled every year for the past two years. (WW - Not sure where he got that information from as it is not true. 2002 entries- 277,
2003 entries – 331 for a 19.4 % rise and 2004 entries – 426 for a 28.7 % rise. No where near doubling every year for the past two years.But Dr. Mitchell says there may be other factors. "Yes, we're seeing more two and a half- and three and a half year-old bucks in the harvest," he noted. "But we can't assume that is a direct result of the one-buck regulation." Mitchell believes that hunter experience is a bigger factor. In the 1970s and 80s, Indiana saw an increase in newcomers buying deer licenses. They were taking the first buck that walked by, therefore more yearlings showed up in the harvest. "Now that they have more experience under their belts and know how to hunt bigger bucks, they're more selective in the deer they take," Dr. Mitchell said. "Their desires and abilities have changed over time, and I think that is a big factor." Regardless of the reason for the increase, the biologist expressed concern that more mature bucks may lead to access issues for the general public and create management problems for biologists. "Look at states like Illinois, Iowa and Kansas with reputations for producing older bucks and you'll see a marked increase in leasing activities," Dr. Mitchell explained. "You get a lot of non-residents as well as residents using money to tie up private hunting land previously enjoyed by the average hunter." The biologist said that creates conflicts, displaces resident hunters from quality deer habitat and leads to dissatisfaction of license holders. "Statistics show a decrease in antlerless harvest as a result of leasing activities, and that impacts our job of trying to keep the herd under control," he added. Dr. Mitchell said leasing hasn't become a significant problem in Indiana, but the practice is on the rise. "I'm already hearing about it from hunters throughout the state," he said. "And it not only impacts deer hunters, but small game hunters, too." www.southbendtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060813/Sports03/608130438&SearchID=73253649277742 |
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Post by hoosierhuntinful on Aug 13, 2006 13:12:39 GMT -5
i wonder why Dr. Mitchell didnt mention more and more hunters practicing QDM.QDM started about 10 years ago to coincide with the increase of mature buck harvest
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Post by hunter480 on Aug 13, 2006 13:15:34 GMT -5
Excellent point made by Dr. Mitchell about the effects of bigger bucks and how that leads to more leasing and Non-Resident interest in deer hunting.
All of which leads me back to my soapbox about how the antler-mania is bad for deer hunting, which leads directly to being bad for deer hunters.
Hunting started as a means of putting meat on your table, but it`s downfall, and especially for the average working guy, may just be the switch from hunting for meat, to hunting for the trophy.
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Post by Sasquatch on Aug 13, 2006 15:01:38 GMT -5
More proof the OBR is a bad idea. Let's increase leasing! Lets let only rich dudes who get their bucks hunting in five states be the only folks able to hunt here in Indiana! Most of all, lets shoot ourselves in the biological foot by never killing does because we are waiting on the giant deer the videos and magazines say we should wait on!! Seriously folks, if you want to wait on a trophy deer, it's your 25 dollars, but let us not force it on everybody,  ? |
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Post by pigeonflier on Aug 13, 2006 16:23:43 GMT -5
Nice story WW.
Notice it says states like Illinios, Iowa, and Kansas. We are not any of those states. And its not OBR that makes those states so attarctable to leasing. Its their gun season structures that make the deer herds. So I highly doubt we have to worry about a leasing epidemic here in Indiana. Our extended gun and muzzleloader seasons fix that problem. Even if OBR stays, we still wont compare to Illinios.
As far as leasing, what else can you do for free in this country for entertainment? I am by far a rich person, but have always been able to secure a hunting spot. I do cement and ceramic tile for a living. Its a good bargaining tool to gain access! You have to put the work in, to reap the rewards. Those that dont put the work in are the ones on the outside looking in. Someone has to pay for the land in the begining. There is nothing for free in this world! Thats what public land is for.
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Post by indianahick on Aug 13, 2006 16:44:05 GMT -5
Pigeonflier- Hate to bust you bubble but are you aware that Illinois gun season harvest is only abut 100 to 200 less than that of Indiana's with most of the difference being made up of antlerless animals? And as a general rule their total havest is higher than Indiana's?
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Post by pigeonflier on Aug 13, 2006 16:51:51 GMT -5
I am not aware of statistics or any of that. I do know that I have hunted Illinios for 5 years and the difference in what you see there and what you see here is alot. And no, I am not refering to B and C bucks, but just mature bucks. And when there is that many more mature bucks, the hunting is just better. Deer respond better. And OBR is not what makes mature bucks in those numbers, its the gun season structures. Even on public land in Illinios. I am not the type of hunter that likes to just sit in a tree and hope something comes along. I like to make it happen. When you rattle in Illinios the woods come alive with does, small bucks, mature bucks, everyone wants to see who is fighting now. Do it in Northern Indiana and you scare every deer north of INDY.
Ever tried to get a firearm tag in Illinios. Do you know how they regulate that. Check into it and then tell me what you think.
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 13, 2006 17:19:48 GMT -5
Most counties in Illinois is not that tough of a draw for slug gun or muzzleloader. Woodmaster and a few of his buddies were drawn for bow, gun and muzzleoader last few years in the county that they wanted.. They could take two bucks each. they killed soem nice bucks too.
Even though the first gun season is short it does catch part of the rut.
OBR and shortening/moving the Indiana gun season are two different subjects. At least to me.
Some people are wanting both.
I personally dont care for either one, but that is me. I see that we are getting some very fine bucks killed one buck or two. I don't see either one making much of a difference in the total scheme of things. The ony difference will be less opportunity with the OBR.
I also see that leasing is a seperate concern. That WILL come either way - one buck or two.. IMHO.
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Post by pigeonflier on Aug 13, 2006 17:50:52 GMT -5
Illinios is over the counter for archery tags,, even NR. Buy the combo and have a blast. No one gets turned down for a firearm tag. Some get antlerless only. Its no guarantee for antler tag. All I hunt is Lee county in the north. And yes,I have recieved a antlerless only for firearm.
My opinion, short gun season is plenty.
Good points there Woody. I like that! .
BTW, where did you find Louie Stout?
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 13, 2006 17:57:49 GMT -5
Illinios is over the counter for archery tags,, even NR. Then why did we have to put in for a draw? Antlerless are over the counter for NR, but not buck tags. I cant comment on how many bucks versus doe tags are drawn by county. I know lots of guys who get all of the buck tags every year as NRs. I know one thing for certain - I don't want to EVER have to draw for a deer tag in Indiana - buck or doe. There are pros and cons on that. . Thank you.. The "other site"..  I did send him a correction on that "double every year" statement. We know that isn't true don';t we? |
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Post by pigeonflier on Aug 13, 2006 18:43:50 GMT -5
Just looked and Illinios did go back to a pre-seaon enter for NR archery. No draw, it says all who apply will receive a tag. About 6 or 7 years ago they switched to over the counter. I was buying a combo, 1 either sex-1 antlerless only. Now I see they have changed it again.
After you go over there, you tell me if you think Illinios laws are working in favor of everyone
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Post by cambygsp on Aug 13, 2006 20:03:41 GMT -5
So if your hunting Illionis.....why do you care what Indiana is doing.......
I mean I hunt Indiana, and I could care a less what Illionis is doing!!!!!
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Post by steiny on Aug 13, 2006 20:04:21 GMT -5
Illinois set a limit of so many non resident tags. Not enough applied, and that is why everyone got a tag. I understand the remaining leftover non-res tags can now be bought, but don't know the particulars.
I've gun hunted IL twice, bow hunted there three times, and going back for another bow hunt this fall. I'd agree with pigeonflier .... you see a whole lot more mature bucks over there than you would around here, putting in the same amount of time, and their season structure is the key.
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 13, 2006 20:59:27 GMT -5
pigeonflier,
Once upon a time non-residents could not deer hunt Illinois at all. Gun or bow.
They have had a draw for at least the last three years, maybe more.
Two years ago there was some folks left out.
The outfitters and politicians got involved and upped the number of permits to 20,000. They also upped the price to I think right at $500.
The last two years they did not have enough applications and everyone that applied got a tag. Last year the excess tags were not sold. This year they will sell them through their DNR.
Antlerless are over the counter for all.
One thing Illinois has done since almost day one of deer seasons is to have almost unlimited doe tags. They still do today.
It used to be the resident archers could kill a buck a day too. Just keep killing and buying a new tag.
They have ALWAYS been at least a two buck state.
Why has Indiana improved over the last ten years? Because we have went to an almost unlimited amount of does that can be killed. Will we ever catch up with Illinois? Probably not, but do we REALLY want to?
Illinois hunters have more problems than we could ever imagine just finding a place to hunt.
Go over to the Illinois forum on Bowsite and take a look see and find out what they think about leasing and outfitters.
Not pretty...
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Post by pigeonflier on Aug 13, 2006 21:01:45 GMT -5
Sorry, my fault
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Post by pigeonflier on Aug 13, 2006 21:06:53 GMT -5
So if your hunting Illionis.....why do you care what Indiana is doing....... I mean I hunt Indiana, and I could care a less what Illionis is doing!!!!! I am not hunting Illinios anymore, cant afford it. Have you seen what they have done to NR prices in the last few years. Havent bought a tag there in 3 years now. But I havent bought an Indiana tag since I bought the first Illinios tag. Plus gas these days. When you witness first hand what these tighter seasons do. You will be a firm believer. Gauranteed. Am I trying to change your mind, NO , Do I think you are wrong? Sure dont. I am just a crazy waterfowler! |
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Post by lugnutz on Aug 13, 2006 21:23:16 GMT -5
Hey woody its a double edged sword, the dnr needs the NR hunters, and the outfitters,,,,,,,and the residents need a place to hunt.
I would think that if the resident Ill. hunters hunted in Indiana for a season, they would have a greater appreciation of the deer size they have for them in their own state. Granted finding a place to hunt maybe a pain in the rump, but the quality of the hunt would probably be much better.
Ill. residents are probably used to what they see year n year out and are used to it, and don't realize the difference between their state and the others.
I would also believe that the hunters that we have in our state that hunt out of state believes that the quality of hunt is better, sometimes much better than what we currently have here. I'm not sure that could be said for the hunters in our neighboring states.
Just MHO
Lug
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 13, 2006 21:23:31 GMT -5
So if your hunting Illionis.....why do you care what Indiana is doing....... I mean I hunt Indiana, and I could care a less what Illionis is doing!!!!! I am not hunting Illinios anymore, cant afford it. Have you seen what they have done to NR prices in the last few years. Havent bought a tag there in 3 years now. But I havent bought an Indiana tag since I bought the first Illinios tag. Plus gas these days. When you witness first hand what these tighter seasons do. You will be a firm believer. Gauranteed. Am I trying to change your mind, NO , Do I think you are wrong? Sure dont. I am just a crazy waterfowler! My son (Woodmaster on here) hunts Illinois a lot and is a firm believer that where he hunts there are bigger bucks - on the average - than what we have here. He is a very good deer hunter and knows a good deer when he sees one. So have no reason to doubt him or you. Now, what exactly causes them to have better deer than we do is a good question. I do know that some people like to cherry pick different states and say that a certain thing that they do is the reason why they have bigger bucks than we do. In Illinois it is - short season. But what about multiple buck limits? In Kentucky it is a one buck limit. But what about they have long season and in the middle of the rut? There are people in this state that want us to do it all. One buck, shorten the gun season and move it out of the rut - but not the bow season. On top of that they want antler restrictions too. Then maybe they will want to have a draw for buck tags like Illinois? Where will it end? Me? I think our herd was growing fast enough with a just right amount of bigger bucks showing up every year. It is a slow process, but Illinois didn't become a big buck state overnight. I know some folks in some parts of the state are not seeing the deer that we are seeing in other parts of the state. But God did not make all deer habitat equal. I've never seen a pheasant or a grouse in my southern Indiana woods. Should I ask the state for a one grouse or one pheasant limit or shorten or move the season? Nope. |
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Post by pigeonflier on Aug 13, 2006 22:28:57 GMT -5
Here is the last buck I killed in Illinios. Is he a record book deer? No way. Is he a nice mature buck. To me he sure was. I can remeber it like yesterday, I saw 12 bucks this size that weekend. But thats bowhunting, you cant get'em all. Took me 6 weekends of driving over there and in the 6 weekends I bet I saw no less than 40 this size or better. I am 10 miles from the MI border and I bet I would be lucky to see 2 like this a year here. I am probably just ranting and dont mean to ruffle anyones feathers. These are just my own personal thoughts. I used to be a very dedicated whitetail hunter. And it disturbed me to see the difference in 1 state to another.  |
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Post by indianahick on Aug 13, 2006 23:04:33 GMT -5
Wow did that open a can of worms. Was not trying to make anyone mad but I am pro Indiana. This is where I live and where I hunt, although I am not pro obr I did not like what we had for a few years in the 90's where you could get a buck with multiple tags and refuge hunts, by multiple I mean more than two and up to 5 or 6. My belief is that two is okay. I have taken does ever since they installed the antler less tags. I love it. All I was trying to say is that there are as many gun bucks killed in Illinois as Indiana. Season length not withstanding. Ill used to have it on their dnr site. Have not found it lately.
Now for my next question. Which I hope does not open another can of worms is very simply isn't the Illinois herd larger than Indiana's and therefor would they not have more bucks that are bigger? Also Ill is almost 20,000 square miles larger than Indiana according to my 1990 atlas.
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