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Post by Sasquatch on Jul 17, 2006 6:15:11 GMT -5
The OBR is bad science, pure and simple. Woody's example proves it. In Indiana, the other buck that can no longer be taken was an archery buck. The archery impact on the deer herd is so small as to be virtually non-existent, especially when compared to the gun harvest. Just think if no gun hunter shot a buck of any size for just one season? Come the next year, You would have to wait for bucks to move out of the way to shoot a doe!! I'm not saying gun hunters are bad. They are essential to deer management. My point is, the OBR simply punishes those willing to hunt with a more difficult weapon. I'm a bowhunter who has shot numerous does but only ONE buck in ten years, but should I shoot one next year I'm done for the season, buck-wise? B.S!!! Sometimes, I think the DNR listens too much when it comes to hunter imput. Too many people are reading ignorant outdoor writers and watching horn-focused deer shows.
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Post by indianahick on Jul 17, 2006 9:06:17 GMT -5
Seems to me that way back in the 70's and 80's that it was suggested that you let the big bucks walk and take the smaller younger more immature bucks because the older ones were the better breed animals with which to improve our growing heards with. Then came the 90's and the infestation of buck permits with license types. Archery, shotgun, muzzle loader, hand gun, military hunt and the ability to take a buck with each. Not of course discounting the new bonus antlerless tags that enabled the takeing of a doe or antlerless button buck. At this time there were so many people killing 3,4,5 bucks and a couple of does and bragging about all of the bucks that they were killing that the buck population fell to well below what were considered minimal breeding ratio's. Whick more or less led to the advent of the one buck rule and the suggestion of only taking large mature bucks; as there were fewer older breeding bucks and a definite need to get decent breeding animals back to proper ratio's. Which of course made the yuck and puke (trophy antler) hunters happy. Those of of that were not yuck and pukers said okay and went doe hunting. The antler oriented hunt shows that tout the yuck and puke tables are pointing deer hunting into the relm of contestism where the reason that you hunt is to get a trophy and your name in one of the books. Which of course is leading to the next step in contestism which is the advent of the w h a and those pushing its agenda. Which in my humble opinion would do to hunting what the bass clubs have done to fishing. And I do not consider what they have done an improvement.
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Post by Decatur on Jul 17, 2006 11:39:25 GMT -5
Wouldnt it be Puke and Yuk? ;D
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Post by Ahawkeye on Jul 17, 2006 12:25:34 GMT -5
I would'nt go as far to say that WHA and BASS are on the same level, Bass has done a great many things for fishing while WHA I agree to be nothing but trouble. As I've said before OBR in my opinion is doing a good thing and if the deer herd is on the rise anyway then it's just helping the cause. As far as antler worship "YUK and PUKE" you shoot yours and I'll shoot mine. I'm not one to argue but if it were to go to a sportsmans vote I vote yes to OBR. JMHO
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Post by tskiller on Jul 17, 2006 13:24:24 GMT -5
Woody,
What are the actual numbers of the deer kills from the graph you put up? Are you saying Tenn. is doing better because the 1.5 yr old buck harvest is 1% greater here? Our 3.5 yr old buck harvest is 3% better than Tenn. You are right about the trend already happening before OBR, it is there in the graph seen by overall decrease in 1.5 yr. old harvest and increase in 2.5 and 3.5 yr. old harvest. But I don't see anything that says Tenn. is doing so much better.
Bowbo,
Never had a deer aged at check in either. The only place I have seen it was at Crane last year.
indianahick,
There were so many people killing 3-5 bucks a year in the 90's? Really? I bow down to their proficiency.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 17, 2006 17:30:29 GMT -5
Woody, What are the actual numbers of the deer kills from the graph you put up? Something around 165,000 deer. I don't have the breakdown in bucks and does at hand though. I'll post it later. In 2004 their harvest was 50.8% yearlings, 36.2% 2 1/2 and 13.0% 3 1/2 and up. So they back slid a little from there. Here is what the Tennessee Wildlife resources Agency has to say about their results. “Tennessee may be one of the best kept secrets in the South. Not only does the composition of the deer herd rival that of most other states, but the opportunity to harvest those deer surpasses almost all other states east of the Mississippi. High numbers of quality deer coupled with long hunting seasons make Tennessee a true diamond in the rough among deer states. Although Tennessee should never be thought of as a “big buck” state due to its lack of high quality soils, it definitely warrants the label as an “old buck” state. In the early 1990s, even before the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Commission reduced the buck bag limit, Tennessee hunters began voluntarily passing up young bucks. From an all-time yearling buck harvest of almost 80 percent in 1989, the percentage of yearlings harvested has been dropping for almost 15 years. In 2005, the yearling buck harvest hit an all-time low of 50 percent. In other words, one out of every two bucks harvested in Tennessee were from an older age bracket (2½ + years of age). . I sure wish a lot of others would see that trned and stop thios OBR madness before it gets even worse. Tennessee is doing it on a three buck limit and in some areas 3 deer a day.. I can only recall killing 2 bucks in one year in Indiana for the past 15 years or so.. I consider myself a pretty decent deer hunter… selective, but decent. .
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Post by indianahick on Jul 17, 2006 22:59:31 GMT -5
Tsk- Overheard several at diffferent places bragging. Personally I was and happy with 2 deer period. Buck or Doe. But if got lucky enough to arrow a decent one would like to be able to get another with muzzleloader if chance presented.
Bassers- guess I still like the old days when you could take your 12 foot lake jon and 5 hp out and enjoy the day gilling without some clown come roaring down with his big motor and then yelling about trying to win his local club weekend tourney and your in his way. This has happened more than once so no bass clubers do not get much slack.
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Post by varmint101 on Jul 18, 2006 10:59:00 GMT -5
No need to lump all bass clubbers into the same category. That's just like lumping all hunters in the same category, slob or not. Realize not everyone is rude though it may seem like it at times.
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Post by indianahick on Jul 18, 2006 11:14:39 GMT -5
Varm- know several good ones, Ran around with one that turned pro and did well. Been asked to join by several local clubbers, just seems as the majority seem to think that if you are not running a 200+ horse motor and own a 30k plus boat you do not belong on the water. But mostly meant that bass changed the nature of fishing from fishing for fun and relaxation to a competition. Which what I feel the wha is all about. Competition and money. Same with the antler worshipers, hunt for bragging rites more than communing with Gods great creation.
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Post by Ahawkeye on Jul 18, 2006 13:11:28 GMT -5
I love to bass fish, I don't fish for money and don't belong to BASS but I'd love to be able tocatch a 5- 6 lber each time out l believe BASS has done a good job making the chance to catch a big fish better and benifiting fishing over all. You could call me an antler worshiper but I have plenty of fun being in my treestand at dawn watching the woods wake up I don't think every one who likes OBR or wants to kill a big one is what you make them out to be. Just because someone would like to kill a big buck doesn't make that guy an out law or a materialistic jerk I'm not quoting any one here but it sure sounds like your headed that direction Indianahick. I do belive that Indiana will go back to at least 2 bucks in a few years but for now I think we're doing a lot of good here with the OBR.
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Post by steiny on Jul 18, 2006 17:38:46 GMT -5
I don't quite understand what point those graphs make either .... although I'm certain the message intended is anti OBR.
Looks to me like Indiana's present program is considerably better than Tennessee's, 3% more 3-1/2 year old bucks and waaaaaay more of our bucks make P&Y quality. OBR has worked well in this area. Don't need charts, graphs or stats to see that, as I can see it with my own eyes. Really starting to see some good bucks around here, and the only significant change I am aware of in the past couple years is OBR.
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Post by dec on Jul 19, 2006 9:13:32 GMT -5
The graphs are merely statists. Good info, but anyone with any statistics back ground can tell you that they can make the stats look anyway that they want.
What I can't beleive is the hatered some have for us "trophy hunters" and "antler worshippers". Trophy hunting has gotten a bad rap because of a few bad apples. I'll be the first to admit and stand up and proudly wave a flag that I AM A TROPHY HUNTING ANTLER WORSHIPPER when it comes to whitetail bucks. Throw the eggs at me, flame away, whatever, I've got big shoulders. If you want to lump me and those like me into the safari hunting, waste it all but the hide and antlers group, then that is your problem, because you have NO CLUE who I am or what my values are.
I LOVE to hunt. I hunt hard and obsessed with hunting. Not only mature bucks, but does, turkeys, ducks, geese, and about any game that presents a challenge. I'll hunt my tail off for a mature buck. If he falls on the first day of the season or the last or not at all, I still hunt and hunt hard. I hunt just as hard after I've taken my one mature buck, and I LOVE OBR.
Yet, I and others like me are the demons in the "obr madness". I have never condemed a single soul for shooting a smaller young buck. I contenst than any deer killed is a very personal decision. Yet, you (generalizing) condem me for being an "antler worshipper" and "trophy hunter". Of those bashing on people like me that support OBR, I ask, how many does did you take last year? I shot 4 does and no bucks, yet had the time of my life last year hunting. (not trying to make this a competition) Many against OBR did not shoot but maybe one doe. But I'm evil because I support OBR and love big antlers. I know that no one has personally attacked me, but in reading the countless posts on this and other forums, it is clear that those of us who support OBR are the problem in the hunting community, so it does become personal at some point in time.
Twist the numbers how you want. The facts are that OBR does force some on the fence hunters to pass on younger bucks. The result is that these bucks either make it another year, or give someone else the opportunity to take these deer. The one who passed on the deer had the opportunity, he just elected to hold out for another opportunity. After all, one of the things I've read countless times is that hunting is about "opportunity". The opportunity is there folks, it is just that some of you would rather whine about it rather than being creative and seizing the opportunity and challenging yourself as a hunter. But then challenge is no fun, because you just might fail. Some just can't see the trees through the forest.
I've said it before and I'll continue to say it. When it comes to the whitetail buck, I'm an ANTLER WORSHIPPING, TROPHY HUNTING junkie. OBR is great.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 19, 2006 9:51:18 GMT -5
DEC,
Sorry, but I think that you are taking this all too personal. I don't recall anyone saying that you personally were an "antler worshipper" on here.
A LOT of us on here, like you, hunt mature bucks, including your's truly.
I have never called anyone that holds out for the buck of their choice an "antler worshipper".
I reserve that label for the folks that will not leave well enough alone and keep pushing and pushing and pushing the government to mandate more and more regulations so that they can have a teensy tiny better chance at a bigger antlered buck.
They want to manage our deer herd by popular demand and not scientific decisions made by the IDNR deer biologists.
To them it makes no difference if that regulation(s) negatively affect tens of thousands of other deer hunters, just as long as they get their way.
It also makes no diference if there are already some very nice bucks already out there that all one has to do is hunt them.
Is 2005 better than 2001? Yep.. Was 2001 better than 1996? Yep.. Was 1996 better than 1991? Yep...
We are seeing a natural progression of a healthy maturing herd and the One Buck Restriction is getting credit for it. Maybe it takes us old timers to realize what deer hunting was and what it is today - pre and post One Buck Restriction.
It also makes no difference to them that a trend to an older age groups had already started before the One Buck restriction. (See Jim Mitchells's quote)
It makes no difference to them that an aging deer hunter population IS becoming more selective and has bought into "Let him go, so he can grow"..
It makes no difference to them that every restrictions is less deer tags sold and less revenues for the IDNR.
It makes no difference to them that QDM was established for private ground use only and was not intended for state wide restrictions.
Some of these regulation requests go back to landowners that could not get their neighbors to agree to their method of qdm. If they cant get them to comply willingly, they get the government to mandate it.
I have NO PROBLEM with QDM as long as it is voluntarily done on private ground by the landowner's or hunters of that ground and not mandated by the government.
You said that these folks wanting more and more restrictions are in a minority, but they are a very vocal minority. Unfortunately in govenment they are the wheel that gets greased.
This will not stop with the One Buck restriction. They will be back for more and more and more.... count on it..
Just look up the word "restriction". Every restriction made is cutting opportunities and hunters..
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Post by jameslyon on Jul 19, 2006 9:51:41 GMT -5
Great post, Dec...go, OBR!
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Post by cedararrow on Jul 19, 2006 11:09:23 GMT -5
Ive read the entire post and have come up with a few judgements of my own.... First starting with the very first post of the thread. Clearly a bad start to a post. Its a skewed graph. Keep in mind people, that tennesee is killing three bucks to our one. Their drop in numbers and increase in another may not really mean that much because people are killing three bucks in a year. You say that the older generation is getting choosier.... OLDER GENERATION? you need to get off that kick in a hurry.. the fact of the matter is that the overall poplulation of hunters is becoming choosier. Rather it be mandated by law of by self restraint. Now back to the graphs You saw a drop in both states of 1.5 old deer being shot, in Indiana thats because fewer people are shooting that one dink buck. In Tennessee it is possible that it is because at the end of a three buck season most of the bucks have been shot at already and are extremely nervous and more than likely nocturnal. Meaning the guy that is trying to fill his tag late in the year after he has already held out for two 2.5 year olds is having a hard time finding that little one that has figured that night time brings peace and quiet. The 2.5 went up 5 for Ten. and 2 for IN. Again with the opportunity to kill 3 bucks it doesnt take much to pull the trigger on a 2.5 year old and say hey i have two more chances. In Indiana you are seeing that upward trend because the guys that shot 1.5 dinks are now looking at the 2.5 as a trophy and they are seeing more of them. The rise in the 3.5 for TN is -1 and the rise for IN is 1. Again because of the pressure put on 2.5 year old deer in TN you see fewer hit that 3.5 year mark which makes them harder to see and kill in the wild. In IN you are seeing an incline in these deer being harvested, why? Because people are laying off the younger deer at a much greater rate than years past. The 1.5 are seeing 2.5 at a much higher rate causing a greater chance for a 2.5 to become 3.5. Think of it in a fountain kind of aspect. Once the top tier is full it spills over to the second tier and when that gets full it spills over to the third. You can bail water out of one tier but the water keeps filling up in the tier behind it and it fills back up again. So no matter what you are seeing the third tier getting water and growing bigger and bigger. You quote the TDNR about how great their state and deer herd really are. HELLO??? The TDNR is a business just like ours. They want to be a part of that trending buck hunting boom. They are going to say whatever it takes to get more out of state guys in their state. My suggestion is read all the DNR pages and publications from local states. Youll see much of the same language. Our state has this our state has this, come be a part of this diamond in the rough. Another out of context quote. Look at it for the base layer of what it really is. It is a business that is advertising. I also read somewhere that the DNR is losing money... NO KIDDING? its not the OBR its the state house yanking money out of their account. The Lifetime license is what stuck it to them there. Fewer people are buying those annual tags, obviously that means fewere money flows. The lump sum the DNR got for those Lifetime License sales got split up and not all of that went into the DNR account. If it did we wouldnt even be talking about this money issue until at least three or four years from now. Again dont skew things because you want to persuade. The best thing you as a moderator on this site can do, is to present the facts and let the people and sportsman of Indiana decide. Im not supporting either or, I'm just trying to clear the water around the mud hole. People that read this need to have a subjective mind. To use the analogy i made earlier about the fountain. Which empties a tier faster one bucket bailing water or two buckets bailing water from the same tier? HMM really seems to make things a lot clearer
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Post by dec on Jul 19, 2006 11:58:06 GMT -5
Woody -
I know no one has attacked me personally (I acknowleged that in my post), but after the continued bashing of OBR and those of us who choose to chase big or mature bucks, it does get personal. I've got a lot of respect for you (even though we've never meet), so don't take what I'm about to type wrong. It was you that used the term "antler worshippers" in another post. You know as well as I do that dang near every hunter that walks into the woods is an "antler worshipper" to some degree. I don't care what anyone says, when a hunter walks into the woods there is a dream of that massive buck. Not everyone holds out for that and that is COOL, but the fact is that there is a fascination with big head gear. It is a part of hunting and it is OK people. Look at old cave men drawings or indian artifacts. Man has always been fascinated with large antlers. Meat, concervation, and heard management should be the primary objectives of hunting, but lets face it, there is a trophy aspect to this.
So again, I go back to what I stated in another thread. If the guys that support OBR are wrong in our beliefs based on the "trophy" phylosophy, then is it not just as wrong, if not more so I'd argue, to want a 2 buck limit, or a 3 buck limit like Tennessee? Who is worshiping antlers then? Shooting 2 or 3 big mature bucks in a season, sure it would be cool ... if I were the only one. But come on, what if everyone did it? There are bag limits for a reason. Herd management & health, conservation, and yes opportunity. I still argue that one buck spreads opportunity to more people. I still argue that one buck allows a percentage of bucks to graduate to that next level, which passes on genetics and opportunity to future hunters. The herd is not out of control because a percentage of hunters (I can't remember the number off the top of my head) can no longer double dip and take two bucks. The herd is out of control due to the massive amount of does giving birth to twins and triplets every year. So herd management is no argument to go back to 2 bucks.
I, as most of us, am out simply for the betterment of hunting within our state and for the kids of tomorrow. I feel everyone should have the best opportunity possible to hunt what is a trophy to them. That might be a forkie to a kid, it might be a booner to a 40 year old. To do that, the trophies (yep the bucks are trophies) have to be allowed to grow older. This is done in two ways. A few fall through the cracks and escape being killed due to a limit on the number taken. And two hunter maturity. And I fully concure with you Woody. The hunters of Indiana are maturing and being more selective in general. But I feel it is a combination of these two and other factors that can bring the best of all worlds to us as hunters.
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Post by hoosierhunter06 on Jul 19, 2006 16:29:54 GMT -5
brad herndon has charts in whitetail news p&y typical 150" or higher kentucky vs. indiana they are #9 with 134 entries and we are #7 with 208 non-typical 170" and above kentucky vs. indiana they are still #9 but we lose a spot and fall to #8 but when it come to getting a decent p&y buck we rank #6 they rank #10. I'm not a suporter of the one buck rule, but shouldn't they have more entries. anyway if and when the one buck rule is done maybe we will rank #2 or try to shoot for #1 what do you think.
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Post by hornharvester on Jul 19, 2006 17:04:42 GMT -5
I would not have a such a hard time swallowing the OBR if the IDNR was the one that wanted it implemented but they were not. The IDNR biologists didn't want the rule but buckled under to pressure from a small self-interest group of people.
Deer hunting today is not so much about trophy hunting as it is a tool for deer herd management. Don't believe that, then why can you kill 68 doe? You know the old saying "don't guide the guide" so let the IDNR trained biologists set the rules. Besides, who knows more about deer herd management than them.
If after this 5 year test period the IDNR comes out and says the OBR is the best thing for our herd and its doing great things then you will never hear me complain about it again. h.h.
Oh, and just for the record i shot seven doe last year and no buck.
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Post by indianahick on Jul 19, 2006 17:45:00 GMT -5
Last year I got one medium sized buck and one medium sized doe. But then again I saw a total of 8 deer and only two were within any kind of range. 4 were being chased by some farm dogs. It seems as though what deer I see depends upon the local farmers and how soon they pick their fields and if there is standing corn then siteings goes way way down. The buck was a seven pointer. The year befor the buck I turned in weighed in at 200 lbs field dressed, it was only a small 8 point but it outweighed many that had bigger antlers. It was the second largest deer (weight wise) that my processor said he got for opening weekend. I think it ended up in the top 10 for the year wieght wise but not even close on antler size. There have been many years that I have taken my self imposed bag restriction of two in does. Once my freezer is full of meat I am done. Should I hunt and get a third it goes to feeding the hungry even if it had yuck and puk head gear it goes to. I love doe tags and have since their inception in the mid 90's.
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Post by dbd870 on Jul 20, 2006 4:35:25 GMT -5
Exactly right. That sums up my feelings h.h.
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