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Post by jkd on Jul 27, 2010 18:11:30 GMT -5
Started this thread so as to not hijack the Skip Hess thread, but here's some things I'd love to know the answer to... If Indiana's deer population is truly exploding, how do we know that? No live population density measurements have been done in Indiana for decades. Supposedly, the insurance companies weren't behind the call for these changes, just a state rep with ties to high fence hunting ops making claims about accident rates... where are the figures to back any of that up? What if the harvest figures GO DOWN this season? Does that mean the herd is being reduced, or might it be that fewer hunters were in the field, weather was poor? Crops out late? What if the harvest figures go down in 2011 or 2012? Does that mean "the plan" is working, or that it just screwed up hunter availability and matching hunting days with peak deer activity? How do we measure that? Articles are claiming that farmers are having more crop damage complaints? Where are those figures? Deer summary reports for the past several years don't seem to cite any such increases that I recall, and anecdotal evidence from many areas, including my northern Hamilton county farm, have shown fewer deer sightings the past several seasons, despite harvest numbers increasing statewide. And where does all this put the OBR "trial"...  The concept as I understood it more recently was that the trial was extended for another five years with the understanding that IDNR would not make radical changes to season rules in order to evaluate harvest stats and age structures. So much for that idea... And if the concept now is herd reduction, how does shortening the firearms seasons that account for the greatest percentage of antlerless harvest? If one wants to create additional firearms seasons AND keep existing season lengths, that would make some sense, but someone please explain to me how fewer days during the rut is going to result in a higher antlerless harvest? Where in all these proposed changes is there anything that deals with issue of hunter access on private ground where accident rates may indeed be increasing? It seems to me that the NRC and IDNR are busy "doing something" about a problem which may or may not exist, due apparently to baseless political pressure, and with no statistical means to validate results. I'm reminded of Rumsfeld's "unknown knowns" quote... |
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Post by catahecassa on Jul 27, 2010 18:41:25 GMT -5
KIRK...glad to "see" you!!! ANYWAY, all great questions...I have many myself (but have stayed OUT of the fray for the most part.) My first flag goes up AFTER the Advisory Committee meeting Dec 09. Also curious there are NO meeting minutes available after this. Just saying. www.in.gov/nrc/files/AC_December_2009_Minutes.pdf"Summary of Recommendations: Propose requirement of hunter orange on ground blinds Consider establishing a comprehensive license for all weapons and bag limits Expand crossbow opportunities into firearms season for all hunters and all seasons for hunters 65 and older Consider legislation that would enable the creation of a separate crossbow license {Emphasis MINE!}Consider extending seasons and bag limits to address Indiana‟s deer herd management Telecheck Depredation permits limited to antlerless deer Consider Earn-A-Buck" ...and here we are. All I am saying for now. |
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Post by tenring on Jul 27, 2010 19:10:00 GMT -5
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Post by catahecassa on Jul 27, 2010 19:15:15 GMT -5
Thank you Sir...fat fingered SOMETHING!
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Post by duff on Jul 27, 2010 19:27:07 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly JKD! I know I am not alone in that I have to travel for thanksgiving and Christmas to meet family obligations. This effectivly limits my gun season to 1 weekend, so much for deer reduction. I butcher my own deer so one a weekend is plenty for me.
Then you figure the unknown and uncontrollable factors you mention...
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Post by HuntMeister on Jul 27, 2010 19:42:32 GMT -5
Excellent questions jkd. Sometimes I feel like we are all chasing our tails.
Just how do we answer these good questions?
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Post by jjas on Jul 27, 2010 19:51:16 GMT -5
JKD,
Glad to put a face with the posts.
If the goal truly is herd reduction, why not sell a buck/doe combination license that can be used during any season and with any weapon for a reasonable price. With everyone carrying both a doe and a buck tag trigger finger management becomes a whole lot simpler. Finally, include the xbow in the archery season for all who wish to use them (which should happen regardless)and leave the gun and muzzleloader seasons alone.
But I too, question the need for any of this. I hunt in an 8 bonus county that had an outbreak of EHD and I'm seeing a third of the deer I used to. Did the state lower the quota number because of the EHD outbreak? Nope. And even with record kills, 6 more counties became 8 bonus counties this year. Wonder how many will be added next year?
I think this whole thing is just a way to sell tags and appease the politicians and special interest groups .
Well , I'm not playing along. Until I see a resurgence in doe numbers in the area I hunt, I'll not buy a bonus antlerless tag and/or kill any does.
Not one.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 27, 2010 19:53:50 GMT -5
Someone/groups sure fed the good chairman a line of bull on crossbows....
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Post by whitetail1 on Jul 27, 2010 20:34:38 GMT -5
I have yet to chime in on any of this, but I have read most (if not all) posts on this forum and others concerning the proposed changes. The questions posted above by JKD are some of the best and most thought provoking questions brought up to this point.
It's gonna be interesting......
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Post by deerman1 on Jul 27, 2010 20:41:15 GMT -5
Nice post JKD!!
I too set in wonderment over all the rash obviously politically and special interest wrapped proposals . It truly puts this whole process and the people involved in a whole new light when the press releases come out and are spun like a top in order to confuse and draw in the weak minded and the new or desperate wannabe trophy hunters with the promise of better hunting .
There are more questions than I can count that I want answered but will never likely get them answered . It is ashamed that with no scientifically proven methods thy have grabbed at straws and done what at every turn looks to do nothing but destroy the hunter satisfaction and deer herd that as you put have not been studied and actually modeled by any scientific method . So who do we believe and when this all falls apart who do we demand the heads on a silver platter of . The DNR heads ,the special interest groups or the Men who pushed their own agendas on every hunter in the state .
But make no mistake if this fails and without a doubt it will there will be Hell to pay and alot of hard feelings and it will likely become personal by many hunters in this state if you get my drift the heads will roll and some will be likely moving out of state looking for new employment in all likely hood.
Are these threats "no" just common sense when a thing this big goes wrong there is always hearings and unkind response and results to those who are most involved and the architects of the down fall.
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Post by Decatur on Jul 27, 2010 20:49:56 GMT -5
Good post JKD
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Post by parson on Jul 28, 2010 6:48:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the post. You've concisely stated sentiments scattered throughout a boatload of threads.
I certainly hope that the decision makers hear from the multitude of hunters who seem to be against these changes.
From what I see in my limited perusal of some hunting sites, even those sites that are operated by archery/trophy hunters seem to have more posts against than for these changes.
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Post by thecommissioner on Jul 28, 2010 6:58:03 GMT -5
Someone/groups sure fed the good chairman a line of bull on crossbows.... The "chairman" must be politically naive if he cannot see the push back coming from an arbitrary age cutoff suggested by a special interest group. Someone needs to pull him aside and buy him a clue before he makes a public fool out of himself. |
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Post by catahecassa on Jul 28, 2010 8:23:51 GMT -5
Someone/groups sure fed the good chairman a line of bull on crossbows.... The "chairman" must be politically naive if he cannot see the push back coming from an arbitrary age cutoff suggested by a special interest group. Someone needs to pull him aside and buy him a clue before he makes a public fool out of himself. PERHAPS just a little too late!!! You be the judge. July 2009 meeting minutes:Tim Labbé, President of the Indiana Bow Hunter Association (“IBA”), stated that the Association is “strongly” against allowing the crossbow during archery season. The IBA does not feel” the crossbow meets the requirements to be considered a bow or archery equipment, but “more resembles” a firearm than a bow. He noted that evidence shows that crossbows are capable of a 100-yard range, which the IBA considers unsafe.{Emphasis MINE! WHAT a crock!}   The Chair noted that a few suggestions received indicated that there would not be opposition to allow the use of crossbows for seniors or those with a disability during archery season. He asked whether the IBA had an opinion as to this suggestion. Tim Labbé said that the IBA would not be opposed to allow seniors or those with disabilities to use a crossbow during early archery season. Dec 2009 meeting minutes:The Chair said another suggestion received was expanding the crossbow opportunities. Crossbows can be used to take deer during the late winter archery season. He noted that “a lot” of states have allowed an expansion of crossbow hunting for deer herd management, and to expand hunting opportunities for those not capable of drawing a long bow. The Chair said that it is “very important” for the Advisory Council to understand there is “very strong opposition” to expanding crossbow hunting for the entire archery season. Suggestions received recommended the early archery season as long bow only except for those with disabilities who are currently allowed to use a crossbow during this early season, and recommended the expansion to allow senior citizens who want to hunt but who cannot draw a bow. “I don‟t think there is any opposition from the bow hunters to expanding crossbow season during the general firearm season”. Also suggested was creating a separate crossbow license, which would require a legislative change. Rick Cockrum asked, “What‟s the thinking behind having a separate license?” {Emphasis MINE!}The Chair explained that public “thinking” is that the crossbow is “in fact, a third category of weapon; it‟s not a bow; it‟s not a firearm; it‟s something in-between.” He said that bow hunters are “adamant” that the crossbow “is not archery equipment”. |
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Post by parson on Jul 28, 2010 8:32:10 GMT -5
I've been around long enough to remember when that same argument was used with the word "compound" inserted in place of "crossbow".
Amazing how the world kept spinning after cams & pulleys (not to mention PCRs) entered the woods.
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Post by thecommissioner on Jul 28, 2010 9:20:33 GMT -5
What kind of projectile is launched from a crossbow? Is it an arrow? Or is it a bullet? Could it be neither arrow nor bullet? If so, then it truly is a "third category of weapon."
I'm telling you guys, the arbitrary age 64 cutoff in the proposed rule will be the undoing of it. That idiotic recommendation (compromise?) by the 'stakeholders' won't pass the ridicule test once it becomes publicized.
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Post by DEERTRACKS on Jul 28, 2010 9:22:32 GMT -5
Great stuff jkd! "Inquiring minds want to know".......
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Post by dbd870 on Jul 28, 2010 9:23:55 GMT -5
Those questions are irrelevant, because those pushing this could care less as it has nothing to do with any of that - regardless of what they are saying.
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 28, 2010 9:56:31 GMT -5
What kind of projectile is launched from a crossbow? Is it an arrow? Or is it a bullet? Could it be neither arrow nor bullet? If so, then it truly is a "third category of weapon." I'm telling you guys, the arbitrary age 64 cutoff in the proposed rule will be the undoing of it. That idiotic recommendation (compromise?) by the 'stakeholders' won't pass the ridicule test once it becomes publicized. Mine shoots arrows. First crossbow I had I cut off some old 2216 Eastons to 20" and went hunitng. 64 and over is a bone thrown to us. Not a whole lot of 64 and up still out there hunting, much less bowhunting. |
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Post by Woody Williams on Jul 28, 2010 9:59:39 GMT -5
The "chairman" must be politically naive if he cannot see the push back coming from an arbitrary age cutoff suggested by a special interest group. Someone needs to pull him aside and buy him a clue before he makes a public fool out of himself. PERHAPS just a little too late!!! You be the judge. July 2009 meeting minutes:Tim Labbé, President of the Indiana Bow Hunter Association (“IBA”), stated that the Association is “strongly” against allowing the crossbow during archery season. The IBA does not feel” the crossbow meets the requirements to be considered a bow or archery equipment, but “more resembles” a firearm than a bow. He noted that evidence shows that crossbows are capable of a 100-yard range, which the IBA considers unsafe.{Emphasis MINE! WHAT a crock of $HIT!} The Chair noted that a few suggestions received indicated that there would not be opposition to allow the use of crossbows for seniors or those with a disability during archery season. He asked whether the IBA had an opinion as to this suggestion. Tim Labbé said that the IBA would not be opposed to allow seniors or those with disabilities to use a crossbow during early archery season. Dec 2009 meeting minutes:The Chair said another suggestion received was expanding the crossbow opportunities. Crossbows can be used to take deer during the late winter archery season. He noted that “a lot” of states have allowed an expansion of crossbow hunting for deer herd management, and to expand hunting opportunities for those not capable of drawing a long bow. The Chair said that it is “very important” for the Advisory Council to understand there is “very strong opposition” to expanding crossbow hunting for the entire archery season. Suggestions received recommended the early archery season as long bow only except for those with disabilities who are currently allowed to use a crossbow during this early season, and recommended the expansion to allow senior citizens who want to hunt but who cannot draw a bow. “I don‟t think there is any opposition from the bow hunters to expanding crossbow season during the general firearm season”. Also suggested was creating a separate crossbow license, which would require a legislative change. Rick Cockrum asked, “What‟s the thinking behind having a separate license?” {Emphasis MINE!}The Chair explained that public “thinking” is that the crossbow is “in fact, a third category of weapon; it‟s not a bow; it‟s not a firearm; it‟s something in-between.” He said that bow hunters are “adamant” that the crossbow “is not archery equipment”. “The strong opposition” only comes from the “organized hunting groups”. Every IDNR deer hunter survey, that has addressed expanding the crossbow season into all archery seasons, has been positive towards that end. In the 2005 IDNR deer hunter survey 49.5% of the responders supported or strongly supported crossbows in ALL archery season. 34.8% opposed or strongly opposed. 15.7% were neutral. The most recent IDNR online survey when asked about crossbows in the early archery season the results were - 42% supported or strongly supported, 26% was neutral and 32% was opposed or strongly opposed. The “very strong opposition to expanding crossbow hunting for the entire archery season” that they are hearing from are these organized groups that really represent only their limited membership. Their combined membership has to be less than 500 and they cant possibly represent the 260,000 Indiana deer hunters on any subject. Yes, they can organize and get some of their following fired up and making a lot of noise against crossbows, but they in no way represent any hunters except their own group, and not all of them. I attended the July deer input meeting and have read the extensive input from Indiana deer hunters. I can find only two instances where someone suggested a 65 and over for crossbows. That was after they asked for full inclusion. One said,” If everyone cant use them in archery season at least allow the 65 and over”. Only one person asked for crossbows in the firearm season. Of course the organized hunting groups want crossbows in the firearm seasons where they will never be used and that is a step in keeping them out of the early archery seasons. These groups are following the lead of the Michigan Bowhunter group that did the same thing and kept crossbow out of the archery season for 8 years until last year when the Michigan DNR finally authorized crossbow use in archery seasons. This is a well known stalling tactic of the bowhunter groups. I counted 37 pieces of deer hunter input that asked for expanding the crossbows into all of archery season. That was the biggest number of requests made. License? The proof is that Paul Vice, as an IBA officer, posted the IndianaBowhunters.com website on March 5, 2005.. “ Crossbows are next on the list. This will be another tough battle. They already have a foot in the door and ask for more every year. I don't believe the following is really that strong. Primarily a few vocal individuals..... but the squeaky wheel usually gets the grease. We will just have to make more noise. If we can get a seperation in tags, I think we can keep a seperation in seasons.” That pretty well exposes their agenda. |
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The concept as I understood it more recently was that the trial was extended for another five years with the understanding that IDNR would not make radical changes to season rules in order to evaluate harvest stats and age structures. So much for that idea...
