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Post by swilk on Aug 26, 2009 20:46:27 GMT -5
? Im not talking about past harvest numbers...... havent talked about them because they really dont add anything relevant to this conversation. I am pointing out the fact there is no TBR data during the 2002-2008 seasons because we there was no TBR. If you are having difficulty keeping up just say so .... Ill be happy to explain exactly what I mean. No reason to add the capitalized text.
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Post by deerman1 on Aug 26, 2009 20:47:12 GMT -5
I would be happy to have a conversation about this but do not put words into my mouth or insinuate I have ever said anything that I have not. I have never said anything along those lines. Ever. It is a fact that we would have killed more bucks under a TBR. It is a fact we have no idea of knowing exactly how many. You can try and make whatever case you want for or against the OBR ..... but you cannot change those two facts. The state absolutely knows how many they had all the relevant info .They also published much of this info for years until it became a tool to be used by both sides .Now unless you happen to have the hard copies of this info from the years past it has been conspicuously removed from the eyes of the average deer hunter who is interested in it !!I still have many of these old papers still in my info drawer you never know when you may want to use it !!! ;D
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Post by swilk on Aug 26, 2009 20:56:39 GMT -5
Are you telling me the state "absolutely knows" how many people killed more than one buck, under the TBR, during the years 2002-2008? Even though there was no such rule during that time?
It seems to me some may not understand what I am saying.
I really dont know how to say it any more simple than I have.
Im not saying anything for or against the OBR. I am simply stating that harvest data prior to year 2002 doesnt really have anything to do with what the harvest data might have possibly been during the years 2002-2008 IF different rules had been put into place.
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Post by duff on Aug 26, 2009 21:00:26 GMT -5
I would be happy to have a conversation about this but do not put words into my mouth or insinuate I have ever said anything that I have not. I have never said anything along those lines. Ever. It is a fact that we would have killed more bucks under a TBR. It is a fact we have no idea of knowing exactly how many. You can try and make whatever case you want for or against the OBR ..... but you cannot change those two facts. No reason to get all huffy. I wasn't saying "YOU". I was saying "many of you" as in many of the obr supporters. It's been fun (not really) hashing out the OBR for the millionth time but I need to go cry somewhere so ridgerunner can go to his IL hot spot and kill his many bucks and tell everyone else they should do the same Give me a break I got suckered into it again...keep up the debate. I am done with it for another few weeks at least. Pass the popcorn
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Post by swilk on Aug 26, 2009 21:07:21 GMT -5
wasnt huffy .... thanks for the clarification.
have a good day.
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Post by lugnutz on Aug 26, 2009 21:07:28 GMT -5
? Im not talking about past harvest numbers...... havent talked about them because they really dont add anything relevant to this conversation. I am pointing out the fact there is no TBR data during the 2002-2008 seasons because we there was no TBR. If you are having difficulty keeping up just say so .... Ill be happy to explain exactly what I mean. No reason to add the capitalized text. You mean you don't want to bring up past harvest information, because it sinks your theories. And your theories are just that theories, with out statistical information. Just pointing out that your have no factual information, just beliefs. The only facts that you can get your hands on, are the ones that blows your beliefs out of the water. Nothing wrong with the side of the fence you stand on, just have the facts correct. Or it makes the side in which you stand on look awfully murky to those standing on the fence.
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Post by swilk on Aug 26, 2009 21:18:07 GMT -5
What are you talking about?
What theories are being sunk?
What beliefs are being blown out of the water?
I mean exactly what I said. Nothing more. Nothing less. Previous data is irrelevant to this conversation for reasons I previously expalined.
Considering I have not taken a position one way or the other ...... my offer still stands on helping you understand what I am saying.
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Post by deerman1 on Aug 26, 2009 21:31:24 GMT -5
Are you telling me the state "absolutely knows" how many people killed more than one buck, under the TBR, during the years 2002-2008? Even though there was no such rule during that time? It seems to me some may not understand what I am saying. I really don't know how to say it any more simple than I have. I'm not saying anything for or against the OBR. I am simply stating that harvest data prior to year 2002 doesn't really have anything to do with what the harvest data might have possibly been during the years 2002-2008 IF different rules had been put into place. No this is not what I am saying .However to cover a few points .first PCRs took only 1% of all deer taken last year.That we know to be factual by the DNR tail of the tape .Also year in and year out prior to the OBR the percentages of hunters who took two bucks a year was never more than a percentage point or two different from year to year we also know that as a factual statement .And there should be no overriding reason why if the TBR was continued would be any more or less by percentage its the law of averages. So the facts would be that with the overall size of the deer herd and number of bucks the small percentage of those who would take two deer would be as irrelevant as it ever was in the grand scheme of things .What is 4000-7000 extra bucks a year in a herd that has twice the bucks in it that we would ever harvest in a multi tag year. ;D
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Post by lugnutz on Aug 26, 2009 21:37:28 GMT -5
It is a fact that we would have killed more bucks under a TBR. It is a fact we have no idea of knowing exactly how many.
Swilk, These are your exact words correct?
Where do you get these "facts"?
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Post by deerman1 on Aug 26, 2009 21:49:25 GMT -5
It is a fact that we would have killed more bucks under a TBR. It is a fact we have no idea of knowing exactly how many. Swilk, These are your exact words correct? Where do you get these "facts"? Fact is we killed alot less buck under the TBR over it last 8 years than the 8 years of the OBR .I think someone should post those numbers if they have them handy as totals or yearly totals to compare!!! I think that in its self will speak volumes about the lack of any kind of false savings OF BUCK NUMBERS DUE TO THE obr!
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Post by swilk on Aug 26, 2009 21:54:08 GMT -5
It is a fact that we would have killed more bucks under a TBR. It is a fact we have no idea of knowing exactly how many. Swilk, These are your exact words correct? Where do you get these "facts"? Correct. Those are my exact words. If we would have been under a TBR during the 2002-2008 season we would have killed more bucks than we did under a OBR. Would you dispute that fact? Had we been under a TBR during that time period we would have no doubt killed more bucks but we have no way of knowing exactly how many. Would you dispute that fact?
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Post by swilk on Aug 26, 2009 21:55:41 GMT -5
It is a fact that we would have killed more bucks under a TBR. It is a fact we have no idea of knowing exactly how many. Swilk, These are your exact words correct? Where do you get these "facts"? Fact is we killed alot less buck under the TBR over it last 8 years than the 8 years of the OBR .I think someone should post those numbers if they have them handy as totals or yearly totals to compare!!! I think that in its self will speak volumes about the lack of any kind of false savings OF BUCK NUMBERS DUE TO THE obr! And we would have killed more had we been under a TBR during the 2002-2008 seasons. That is all I am saying.
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Post by lugnutz on Aug 26, 2009 22:08:11 GMT -5
If that is correct how do you explain the influx of buck kills?
I'm not positive, but i don't believe hunter numbers have increased over the past few years, maybe several years. PCR's hasn't brought a large number of hunters into our sport, and the recent additions of youth seasons has absolutely no barring on buck kills.
Like I've always said, there isn't enough "buck savings" to warrant the OBR. The OBR only takes away, and doesn't give anything substantial to our sport. Won't be long and Archery will be a thing of the past.
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Post by jkd on Aug 26, 2009 22:17:47 GMT -5
I wish somebody had told me we had a TBR from 2002-2008...!!! I must have missed the announcement...
Duff - my head hurts from reading the last four pages, but I think the analogy to all these OBR stats and counter-stats is... how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood...
According to Chad Stewart, only 45% of Indiana deer hunters take any deer... and of that 45%, 65% will take only one animal... I guess we are to infer that the other 35% of the 45% take more than one deer... but that doesn't mean that if we were in a TBR universe, they would all take a buck as their second or third deer...
Last year, the only buck I saw during legal hunting hours in all seasons was the nice 8 point I took end of gun season... saw lots of does at long ranges, but never had a shooting opportunity, and it wasn't from a lack of hours in the field...
Point being, bucks are more wily than does, and old bucks are really cunning, so make it a three buck rule or four buck rule, and it wouldn't matter... most hunters are lucky to tie into any buck... or any deer for that matter...
According to Chad, 55% ate tag soup...
PS - of that 55%, 90% didn't enjoy the taste... :-)
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Post by greghopper on Aug 26, 2009 22:25:49 GMT -5
Why is the OBR working so great in other "STATES" ... .....(Kentucky)Explain why Indiana is so different,and the OBR will not work in our state like it is in others.... are we really that "DIFFERENT"... OK here you go as you requested and FYI there is only one state that due to a bunch of whining by what is obviously some of the poorest or pickiest hunters in this part of the country and the harvest percentages and numbers will likely show what happens when it becomes about nothing more than taking a large antlered old buck only at all cost but the sad part is Indiana is right on their heels .The other OBR states are not rolling in the management slop or taking the number of deer they should either states like OH,PA,KY,NY,IN are really not the perennial top spots are they now?? But IL,IA,WI,MO,MN are taking us by storm they are all TBR states HUMMMMMM! As we all know Indiana has not gave out a official estimate in a few years .But most biologists and those in the know are in some what a sense of agreement that we are caring between 500,000 and 550,000 deer that is open for debate but it would sound very close to most who truly know our deer herd and its structure.So that said that would be the only number that is not totally validated by our State DNR .I also ask why are they afraid that if those in power at the statehouse or the hunters knew there would be a whole lot to answer for ? I think yes . Also I believe woody presented us with a statement from Our own DNR that stated most successful deer hunters in our state takes 2 deer a year .So that means that right at 3/4 of all our deer hunters never take a deer throughout the season. this will show how many of your deer killers are likely out of the woods after they take the one buck they are allowed and most have taken their doe by that time as well.Here is your why Indiana is soooo much different than other OBR states .It is pure numbers and percentages that is what is different and that is indisputable after close examination.All numbers are per each states DNR or game commissions from 2007 sorry I have not got all the figures from 2008 but it will be within a percentage point it always is. Indiana Deer herd number call it 550,000 or what ever you like \ Total number all deer hunters 222,568 Bow hunters 78,491 Bow hunters took 26,643 total deer Total take for all seasons including bow was 124,427 <-------so by our own Dnr admission only about 65,000 deer hunters take deer annually since they most take two deer and are done after the buck falls. Pitiful really Kentucky Total deer herd number 753,000 they to are also right at a 1-1.5 B to D ratio as well!! Total all deer hunters 318,500 Bow hunters 102,200 Bow hunters took 15,288 <----- I guess opening a bow season in the depths of the heat of September has its drawbacks ! Total all season including bow 113,436 <---------What a horribly pitiful attempt of hunting and management .They are likely at 1,000,000 deer as of this year with that low of harvest and that many deer.they have 100,000 more deer hunters than we do !!! Ohio total deer herd number 700,000 total all season hunters 700,000 total bow hunters 300,000 bow hunters took 78,639 deer total deer taken all season including bow season 232,854 They do not even reach the 50 % of the herd number and they are by far the most efficient of all the one buck states .It is also estimated that the y may be at or about 900,000 deer as of the start of this deer season. Working like a charm they have 3x the hunters we have!! New York total deer numbers 800,000 total all season deer hunters 755,670 total bow hunters 203,890 total harvested by bow 31,060 total taken all seasons including bow 219,141 <---they are totally out of reach of herd control they have 525,000 more hunters than we do!!!!!! Pennsylvania total deer herd number 1,650,000 total deer hunters all seasons 954,841 total bow hunters 265,841 total harvest with bow 60,890 total all seasons 323,070 I wonder how many deer they will have this year or next or 5 years from now??? Oh by the way they have 720,000 more deer hunters than we do Why with numbers like these are they not taking total control of the books along with NY??? Because they take fewer deer by percentage than we do !!! We here in Indiana have one huge thing that all the other states do not have or the one thing that is different from the rest is plain and simple very very low hunter numbers per deer herd numbers and we have alot of hunters passing every deer that walks by them with only one in about four pulling the trigger .That is what is different and will stay different except the deer herd will be and is out of control to the point that 1,000,000 may not be but 5 or 6 years away if things do not change . Now find an argument for theses numbers if you want but it will only prove how ignorant that blind support can be for ill though projects when it fills you need! Sorry Timex nothing personal for the KY blasting but darn they need to either get better or pull the trigger and forget the antlers for a season or two!! Let me post some quotes from "The Science Behind Hunting" www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-hg_featuredstories.pdfThe DNR seeks to provide a positive hunting experience for all. The DNR hears and acts upon concerns of hunters, anglers and general wildlife enthusiasts, if they make biological sense. After years of listening to some deer hunters’ perception that Indiana needed to improve the age class of its male deer, the DNR instituted a bag limit of one antlered buck per year. “In Indiana, studies based on yearly averages show about 55 percent of all licensed deer hunters do not shoot a deer,” Indiana deer biologist Chad Stewart said. “Of the deer hunters who are successful in taking an animal, around 65 percent shoot only one deer.[/u]
"Hunting has deep roots in science,” Salmon said. “Science has to come first. Above all, we must remember that we are making decisions that can have long-term impacts on wildlife populations entrusted to us by all Hoosiers. Without scientifically based data, we would be unable to make sound management decisions regarding the future of wildlife populations.” Next time you question a regulation, have confidence that sound scientific data support it. What’s in the best interest of wildlife, combined with what hunters’ desire, lies at the core of DNR hunting decisions. One must ask there self.....Is Deer Hunting in "INDIANA" really as BAD as some point it to be..... [/u]...
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Post by mrfixit on Aug 27, 2009 5:38:08 GMT -5
If so few people "double-dip" then why worry and limit people to only one buck?
The state is losing tag money and hunters are losing field opportunity.
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Post by swilk on Aug 27, 2009 6:08:30 GMT -5
I'm not positive, but i don't believe hunter numbers have increased over the past few years, maybe several years. PCR's hasn't brought a large number of hunters into our sport, and the recent additions of youth seasons has absolutely no barring on buck kills. You make absolutely no sense. I never said hunter numbers increased. I said they changed. I never said PCR's added a large number of hunters. I said we had an addition of a PCR season. I never said youth hunters killed bucks. I said we added a youth season. If you cant understand how changing several variables in an equation can make the end results of that equation different I cant really be of any help to you. So far all you have done is try and twist my words to fit your agenda. Stop it. It makes you look silly.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 7:44:35 GMT -5
Why is the OBR working so great in other .....(Kentucky Kentucky Total deer herd number 753,000 they to are also right at a 1-1.5 B to D ratio as well!! Total all deer hunters 318,500 Bow hunters 102,200 Bow hunters took 15,288 <----- I guess opening a bow season in the depths of the heat of September has its drawbacks ! Total all season including bow 113,436 <---------What a horribly pitiful attempt of hunting and management .They are likely at 1,000,000 deer as of this year with that low of harvest and that many deer.they have 100,000 more deer hunters than we do !!! Sorry Timex nothing personal for the KY blasting but darn they need to either get better or pull the trigger and forget the antlers for a season or two!! Absolutely no offense taken, because your post is laughable. In fact, I only read the snip about Kentucky, and don't have a clue how wrong the info is on the other states you posted, because none of the numbers you posted on Ky. are true numbers. Ky. has never had 300,000 deer hunters. the do sell that many hunting licenses, but not even close to that number of deer tags. The real number has always been estimated by the KYDFWR because several groups recieve free tags and licenses each year, but it is close to 270,000 total and recently slightly less than that. The b/d ratio is close to 1:1 in most all areas. The number of bowhunters is estimated, it less than your number and the major archery clubs say it's less than 75,000.....nobody knows for sure, because Ky. does not sell a archery tag or license. Last year, Ky. had a checked harvest of 120,000, they know that all deer don't get checked and normally add up to 40% to those numbers to account for those that don't make it into the system for modeling. Last, I think Ky. still ranks really high on the list in number of B & C bucks per huntable acerage and in high in other cat. as well. they do not rank well in P & Y records because the min. of 125" is way below the average buck that most people kill and they simply don't have them scored for that book. Ky. has been proactive on doe harvest for many years now, allowing for unlimited harvest in a lot of areas. This has helped keep the deer herd in check and it's buck quality in really good condition. To say that Ky. deer management is pitiful would get your credibility questioned in most circles, as most reknowned biologists know that Ky. is/has been on the cutting edge for several years now.
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Post by deerman1 on Aug 27, 2009 17:23:06 GMT -5
Why is the OBR working so great in other .....(Kentucky Kentucky Total deer herd number 753,000 they to are also right at a 1-1.5 B to D ratio as well!! Total all deer hunters 318,500 Bow hunters 102,200 Bow hunters took 15,288 <----- I guess opening a bow season in the depths of the heat of September has its drawbacks ! Total all season including bow 113,436 <---------What a horribly pitiful attempt of hunting and management .They are likely at 1,000,000 deer as of this year with that low of harvest and that many deer.they have 100,000 more deer hunters than we do !!! Sorry Timex nothing personal for the KY blasting but darn they need to either get better or pull the trigger and forget the antlers for a season or two!! Absolutely no offense taken, because your post is laughable. In fact, I only read the snip about Kentucky, and don't have a clue how wrong the info is on the other states you posted, because none of the numbers you posted on Ky. are true numbers. Ky. has never had 300,000 deer hunters. the do sell that many hunting licenses, but not even close to that number of deer tags. The real number has always been estimated by the KYDFWR because several groups receive free tags and licenses each year, but it is close to 270,000 total and recently slightly less than that. The b/d ratio is close to 1:1 in most all areas. The number of bow hunters is estimated, it less than your number and the major archery clubs say it's less than 75,000.....nobody knows for sure, because Ky. does not sell a archery tag or license. Last year, Ky. had a checked harvest of 120,000, they know that all deer don't get checked and normally add up to 40% to those numbers to account for those that don't make it into the system for modeling. Last, I think Ky. still ranks really high on the list in number of B & C bucks per huntable acerage and in high in other cat. as well. they do not rank well in P & Y records because the min. of 125" is way below the average buck that most people kill and they simply don't have them scored for that book. Ky. has been proactive on doe harvest for many years now, allowing for unlimited harvest in a lot of areas. This has helped keep the deer herd in check and it's buck quality in really good condition. To say that Ky. deer management is pitiful would get your credibility questioned in most circles, as most renowned biologists know that Ky. is/has been on the cutting edge for several years now. Sorry but this info came directly from the Kentucky DNR and was published in several publications this year one is the 2009 deer hunters almanac printed and put out by Krause publications and Deer and deer hunting so feel free to argue with the Kentucky DNR!!! Not me it was verbatim word for word their statements and numbers .So sorry but some times the truth hurts a bit and this was the KY Truth according to your DNR not something I made up.If you take exception with the postings then take it up with Krause publications and the KY DNR not me . You may want to ask them directly at 1-800-858-1549 or go to www.kyafield.com !!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 17:51:04 GMT -5
[ Sorry but this info came directly from the Kentucky DNR and was published in several publications this year one is the 2009 deer hunters almanac printed and put out by Krause publications and Deer and deer hunting so feel free to argue with the Kentucky DNR!!! Not me it was verbatim word for word their statements and numbers .So sorry but some times the truth hurts a bit and this was the KY Truth according to your DNR not something I made up.If you take exception with the postings then take it up with Krause publications and the KY DNR not me . You may want to ask them directly at 1-800-858-1549 or go to www.kyafield.com !! That proves it's false......as Ky. doesn't have a DNR. I'm in contact with the Ky. Dept. of Fish and Wildlife Resources enough to know how many tags and license they sell and have sold in the past. That number is rarely published, but if you attend the Commission and committee meetings, you'll know it and have it on paper. And also the est. number of all hunters, then broke down into deer hunters, both gun and bow and the estimated number of deer in the herd. Dr. Jon is a friend of mine and I'm fairly sure that he would take exception to you calling his dept. and management what you did. Kentucky is one of the best in proactive deer management. The biologists have Doctors degrees and are not novices. They are hunters and know hunting and management. I suppose the elk program is also in the crapper according to you???
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