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Post by cambygsp on Oct 10, 2005 4:47:43 GMT -5
I have seen on another site where just about every other thread is talking about taking hunting opportunity away from someone.
No gun hunting during the rut
Move guns out of November
No Late Season Crossbows
So on and so on......
I ALWAYS ask myself "are these folks REALLY hunters"?
If you REALLY want a "pressure-less" rut.....then wouldnt we just end ALL hunting during that time period?
Why is it so important to restrict one type of hunter over the other?
Arnt the folks who are "bowhunting" really just "deer hunting" with a bow?.....It's really all the same sport in my opinion!!!!!!!!
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Post by DEERTRACKS on Oct 10, 2005 7:48:48 GMT -5
I agree cambygsp. It seems as though that the die hard conventional bow hunters want the prime-time woods entirely to themselves. And yes, I bow hunt with a compound.
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Post by squirrelhunter on Oct 10, 2005 9:04:15 GMT -5
The way of the world now a days.Me,me ,me ,me,me.
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Post by Hitman on Oct 10, 2005 9:48:08 GMT -5
The other bowhunters act as though if you don't use a stick and sting your not a bowhunter, and my high speed carbon arrow throwing compound is from "The Dark Side". Of course I get it from muzzle loaders for using a scoped out composite stock in-line, but hey any way to fill my freezer works for me. JMHO "Use the Froce Tom, Use the Froce"
Hitman
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idhmc
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Post by idhmc on Oct 10, 2005 11:22:43 GMT -5
"Why is it so important to restrict one type of hunter over the other?"
Its not to restrict the hunter, only the weapon because of the ease of take by percentage or likelyhood of harvest. There are quite a few Archery only Outfitters out there today because the understand what keeps people coming back to them year after year. Alot of mature bucks running around. No one wants to go to a woods/stand and not see any deer activity. The majority of hunters today like to see mature animals while on stand and thus keeping their interest in the area for hunting at any time of the hunting season instead of just hoping that a big buck comes cruising through during the rut. These operations do very well and book many hunters year after year usually with a long waiting period until the next availible slot. I also know of hunting group leasee's that have began the "Archery Only" approach to their lease. They have found that over the years they are seeing many more mature bucks running around keeping their hunting juice's flowing throughout the year. Here are a few reasons to the topic.... * The Archery havest percentage/success ratio helps to increase the buck herd to manage for biological herd numbers. * Archery equipment have a lessor yardage range as firearms, giving that 3.5 year old buck a chance at dieing of old age. * The vulnerable time frame of the rut helps create higher anltered harvest, in turn, often creating reluctance for Doe harvest waiting for a buck to come around. (Years ago, we aimed our state management towards buck only harvest until we achieved herd numbers accross the state. Now that our herd is large enough for the state, a new management system needs to be applied for biological settings.) * To increase buck numbers throughout the herd, and decreasing Doe numbers, you increase the Natural biological effects and add to the intensity of the rut and its activities. * To invite more participation to all hunting periods. ( Most hunters are waiting until the fireams portion of deer season to hunt because they know that at this time their more likely to see/harvest a mature Big Buck. If the Buck numbers were higher in the state, hunters could enjoy any portion of the year for that Big Buck sighting and get that chance at a dream buck. More participation throughout the year increases revenue for the state so long as they dont make the One Buck Tag availible throughout the year. * By increasing the amount of bucks in Indiana, recruitment of hunters will increase. (Many of today's hunters are taking part in Canned hunts/shooting preserves because of the lack of availible animals in the field. * Increase the quality of the hunt through calling. For those of us that hunt other speicies of game such as turkey and coyote for instance, we know the value and the thrill of calling animals. We also know the difficulty of calling and the aggrivation it gives when responce is ignored due to male-female proportion within the prey we seek. A Big Tom isnt going to listen to you while he has all the hens he needs within a 2 mile radious LOL (far fetched) A bull elk isnt going to listen either. Many a hunter has no idea of the hunting thrill involved with calling techniques to add to the quality of the hunt. * By increasing the buck herd and decreasing the Doe herd, Fine scale habitat usage is also effected. Studies have shown that Agricultural fields are utilized greater by the Doe than a Buck in a small area. Natural browse is more utilized by bucks because they arent carring a fawn. (for the gist of the study)
Hunters need be more conservation minded and to pass on what we have now but much better. By sacrifice now, we can insure a better tomorrow for our children. Or forefathers made sacrifices for us but yet we are not willing to do the same??? People need to look past the "here and now" and focus on the future, in the meantime, we still have the oppertunities that our fathers didnt have. This in itself should make us happy enough. So I say, make a little sacrifice now, learn and then educate, so more people have the opertunity to enjoy the traditions, the thrill, and even the harvest of dreams that we ALL share. Hunt Hard stay conservation minded and above all, God Bless Gary
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Post by cambygsp on Oct 10, 2005 12:00:58 GMT -5
Your kidding .... Right?
With this and most other states busting at the seams with deer, why would we want to restrict hunting opportunity?
If the goal is to allow bucks to breed in peace (lol), then why wouldnt the proposal be to just stop all hunting during the rut?....why just outlaw guns?
Sure seems like some folks want everyone else to make a sacrifice for big antlered deer....untill it affects their hunting.
Deertracks......
I disagree......... those "die hard" folks don't care what anyone else does. They are confident enough in their own skills and concentrate on what they are doing, instead of what everyone else is doing.
I think you got "real" die hards confused with "wannabe" die hards.
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Post by hunter7x on Oct 10, 2005 12:09:56 GMT -5
I am as dyed in the wool bowhunter as they come, and no a cross bow isn't bowhunting. Using a conventional bow comes with it certain restrictions that we enjoy and a cross bow exploits. I don't think they should be outlawed, but I think they should have their own season. It would be fine by me to stop all seasons during the peak of the rut. For someone to ask are these people really hunters...from what I see they are some of the most dedicated hunters out there who enjoy the challenge of getting within 20 or so yards of a deer before we take 1 calculated shot at it. Just remember we are all DEER hunters and it's not going to do any of us any good to belittle another deer hunting group no matter if it's gun hunters, bowhunters, crossbow hunters or spear hunters !!!
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Post by cambygsp on Oct 10, 2005 14:16:25 GMT -5
Hunter 7x Do you beleive that ALL weapons should have a stand alone season?...No mixing of weapon type at any part of the season? Stop ALL deer hunting during the rut? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ?? Well, at least you are not saying to stop everything EXCEPT archery....lol lol I understand all about up-close and presonal .....I don't understand how removing guns from the rut will help accomplish it, if you can't get that to happen during the 8 or 9 weeks all other weapons are already restricted, why would someone feel that it would happen during the rut if gun hunters were not out there?
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Post by Rick Lyon on Oct 10, 2005 14:41:13 GMT -5
One only needs to cast their eye toward Europe to see the future of hunting. It's really true, if you don't learn from mistakes, history will repeat itself. ![:'(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cry.png)
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Post by hunter7x on Oct 10, 2005 14:58:48 GMT -5
Hunter 7x Do you beleive that ALL weapons should have a stand alone season?...No mixing of weapon type at any part of the season? Stop ALL deer hunting during the rut? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ?? Well, at least you are not saying to stop everything EXCEPT archery....lol lol I understand all about up-close and presonal .....I don't understand how removing guns from the rut will help accomplish it, if you can't get that to happen during the 8 or 9 weeks all other weapons are already restricted, why would someone feel that it would happen during the rut if gun hunters were not out there? I'm not sure if I would want stand alone seasons for all weapons or not. I really don't think it's that big of a deal. I do think guns in the peak of the rut are a serious downfall of letting more mature bucks make it through another season. The reasons I feel it could accomplish it without guns in the rut: Guns have a 100+ yard range. A lot of gun shooters like to throw the lead, 4 or 5 or 6 shots verses 1 up close and personal shot. Leads to a lot of wounding losses and some lucky hail mary shots that do connect. The sheer numbers of guns in the woods. The numbers of mature deer killed during gun season should speak for it's self. Everyone of those big bucks are out there during every day of archery season and come opening day of gun season an awful lot of them get blasted. Why is that ? I don't want to see anyone lose any days afield, but honestly how many gun hunters hunt more than opening day or weekend of gun season ? So lets not take any days away, but lets move the days and let them work a little harder for the mature bucks. IMO if they really are "hunters", they'll welcome the challenge. I have nothing against shotgun hunting for deer in Indiana. I have long enjoyed the wonderment of opening day of gun season also. But I have moved on to a different part of hunting that includes wanting to challenge myself to shoot the biggest deer possible as well as fill some doe tags to help with population control. Opening day of gun season at this point in my life is spent helping my 12 year old son be in the right spot to harvest any deer he can.
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Post by Rick Lyon on Oct 10, 2005 15:05:27 GMT -5
I'd like to share a story:
Back in the early 90's, 91 or 92, I had just started cutting my bowhunting teeth. I'd killed two, maybe three deer (does) with a bow at the time. I was at one of the deer shows here in Indiana, likely the Hoosier Deer Classic at the time, I really don't recall. Anyway, I was really taken by Myles Keller and struck up a conversation with him. I told him I was interested in learning more about hunting big bucks. He gave me some good advice that still holds true today. He said, go and shoot some deer first, 8 or 10, before you ever worry about trophy bucks. This Whitetail mania thing has people all over the country trying to be trophy hunters and they have yet to even shoot a deer. Bowhunters need to get a feel for shooting live animals and it's hurting bowhunting overall.
I see the same situation today. Truly sad, as most will never know the true joy of bowhunting and progressing naturally over a number of years. (just like they teach in the Hunter Ed classes.)
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 10, 2005 15:11:50 GMT -5
You are right in that a majority of the deer ( 52% ) and bucks (58%) are killed opening weekend of gun season.. IMO - Shortening of the season will do very little as hunters will be in a hurry up mode and will end up shooting a lesser buck (sliding trophy scale) than if they had time to wait. That could be counter productive in growing mature deer.. Moving the gun season out of rut will change a lot of the style of hunting. I know that a lot of drives are conducted in some of the state that have the gun season out of the rut. If the big boys wont move on their own the drivers will get them up and moving.. This is from Kansas and it was a two day drive hunt (not my hunt) ![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Woowoo1/14bucksa.jpg) KY hunts the rut and they uses a weapon that has a lot greater range than 100 yards.. I personally think we "tinker" too much with the deer seasons instead of just hunting..
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Post by hunter7x on Oct 10, 2005 15:28:06 GMT -5
I've seen that picture and heard everything from Iowa to Missouri... Kansas. Does anyone really know where it's from ?
Not being sarcastic...a serious question...
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Post by cambygsp on Oct 10, 2005 15:33:29 GMT -5
I have to admitt....after 20+ years of bow and gun hunting I have not progressed a bit. I still get just as excited about deer hunting as I did in the beginning years. I still get excited about shooting ANY type of deer, doe, fawns, bucks...it just don't matter to me.
I have always had the attitude that I am "deer" hunting....and thats what I am there for.
I've hunted deer for over 20+ years in this state, and I can HONESTLY say that I have NEVER been dis-satisfied with any deer I have ever shot or I have never looked to get anything more out of deer hunting....I just don't see how it can be anymore fun than it already is.
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Post by hunter7x on Oct 10, 2005 15:45:25 GMT -5
I've hunted for about the same amount of years (22 years) and I would not say in the least I get less excited about any deer I shoot. Not sure where I gave you that impression from ? Or what it has to do with anything. I still get just as excited about every aspect of hunting as I did my very first season. I still can't sleep the night before opening day of archery season and my heart still skips a beat when I hear a deer approaching.
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idhmc
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Post by idhmc on Oct 10, 2005 15:52:27 GMT -5
No, camby, im very serious. Im sorry if I didnt make myself clear enough in my post.
From what I gather of your posts, your not too conservation minded. Also, it seems that you believe that hunting is your Right. Let me remind you that hunting is a Privalige for us all.
Now, if the deer herd is "busting at the seems" as you say, wouldnt we as hunters want to do our part to fix the problems at hand? We are lucky enough to have a DNR to control the various situations that rise with our beloved sport/heritage. What portion of the sex type is creating the problems in Indiana to make it "bust at the seems"? Thats right, the female. Doe permits are set high and bucks are set low. Meaning we need to harvest does to keep the population at reasonable standard to keep hunters and prey even and so that the animals dont over use the areas of the state. With the majority of hunters out there that are less motivated by biological and conservation minded approches, they are restricted to seasons and dates to hunt set by our DNR. Otherwise, we only need to look at history to see what happens when there is no control. When a portion of animals are overpopulated and the other sex type differ greatly, restrictions in some way need to be addressed. Herd numbers and sex type will not stay static so regulation changes are in order. Some hunters see this as oppertunity loss but in reality its an enhancement to create better oppertuntity.
Opertunity is not lost nor restricted to anyone individual hunter out there. The deer hunting season is very long in Indiana and the hunter has an array of weapon choices to choose from. A hunter is more than welcome to take up any legal weapon availible and use it during its set season. The state has created weapon choices and more weapon choices to try and get hunters to help them control the herd and its settings. But even with all the availible weapons and seasons we still have a skewed sex type/herd layout. Our DNR, as well as we hunters need to focus at the task at hand to do our part in keep a safe, biological herd. Most hunters will not do it for themselves let alone others and the future. A changing of the seasons format or an Earn-a-Buck (in my opinion) is needed to combat the doe herd numbers. Across the board participation by hunters to harvest Does will not happen even with reduced Doe tag prices. With limited number of hunter availible for our DNR, they must utilize each and every one of us.
Im not sure where you got the "breed in peace" from but they do most of their breeding at night and in peace anyway.
As for the rut, if the choice was A) No hunting at all in the rut.. I would be for it. If it were,, B) No Guns in the rut... I would be for it. If it were C) Anterless only during the rut, I would be for it. As it is, the DNR cant remove hunting the rut all together. They utilize the activity and movement patterns that the rut produces. Deer are up moving around offering hunters a better opertuntiy to harvest as other times of the year. Not only are the bucks up moving far more, the does are as well because they are often being pushed by the buck themselves. Packing in the groceries for the winter and such, make the rutting portion of the deer herd a valuable time slot to reduce herd numbers.
Sacrifices have always been the need of the hunter to better hunting. We all must undergo some sacrifice ourselves to better others and the future.
By removing the Gun from the rutting period of the season, it causes the hunter to either hunt a buck while he is not at his most vulnerable state or choose a different weapon that forces the hunter to have to get closer to an animal to harvest due to potential range factors of that weapon. Success rates of each weapon at long yardages always shows better with the gun. That is a gimme. Being proficiant with the weapon used also has effect. Average yardages of hunters harvesting an animal with a bow vs a gun is much shorter meaning that deer may just have the upper hand with his ability to smell see and hear you. He has a greater opertuntiy to avoid the hand of the hunter and live another day. This always sets well with the non-hunter because they like it when the animal has the upper hand and successfully outwits the hunter. As a hunter myself, I also like the challenge to get up close and to give the upper hand over to the prey. As a sportsmen I feel that all should challenge themselves. But that is a different story and off the topic.
Ive taken the time to type all this up all the while having the sucption that you have your mind made up and regardless the reasonnings given you will continue to keep your opinion. Whether bull headed or the fact that you are not willing to undergo change to enhance the herd for a better tomorrow only what you have for today, I dont know. There are those who choose to listen and learn and then there are those who are never wrong. Where each of us fall into the catagories, are how our and our childrens futures are decided. We all have the choice to either one.
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Post by cambygsp on Oct 10, 2005 16:23:16 GMT -5
WOW......you really have me confused. How does moving the gun out of the rut do anything to reduce the female deer population? I think you know as well as I do that the motivation to move the gun out of the rut is to have less competition for the bucks for bowhunters. Hey, I have a novel idea.....why don't we INCREASE opportunities for guns...give them more time afield but restrict them to antlerless only in that additional time. How about a October M/L weekend...for antlerless only? I have a pretty hard time beleiving that anything is being done wrong, as it stands. We have managed to grow an awsome deer herd in this state...if there is anything that is working against the biologists it's the ANTLER MANIA that so many seem to be suffering from. Enhance the herd for a better tomorrow? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ?? You don't think things are better today than they were in the 1970's?
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idhmc
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Post by idhmc on Oct 10, 2005 17:36:18 GMT -5
To be honest, This is the type of reply I expected of you and I dont feel I have you confused at all.
I didnt say anything about the female deer population other than the fact that the DNR uses that time frame to reduce deer by activity of the animals. Deer move more at that time frame. Reread my post. Unless you want to know that most gun hunters will see less buck movement our of the rut and utimatley harvest a doe because thats all they are seeing until they become more efficiant hunters.
Regardless the motivations, the needs outway them. You are trying to turn gunhunters agaist bowhunters over a biological proposal. SHAME ON YOU! If this is your best effort to debate then go away. In the meantime, some hunters care enough to try and produce effects to better themselves and their prey. Increasing the gun season for antlerless only deer is just fine with me. With this new segment we will ultimatly find the amount of hunters that are just hunting for meat. So too, with all the new bonus permits for the selected counties, they too should produce many harvests with the added harvest settings right??? Surely that extra harvest quota's will produce?? LMAO Yeah, thats going to make a REAL dent in the herd. ( I hope you are catching on to my sarcasum here) We know that antlerless only hunting seasons dont produce as well as the states would like them too. Just look at other states for the evidence. Sure.... How about that weekend M/L season..... In another thread you post up a "Lack of interest" as the topic... this is where you will find most hunters for that management effort you suggested. Its hard enough to get hunters out in that heat and cover. I will admitt that there will be harvests in each catagory you suggest but at the same time creating friction between hunter and hunter. Time alotments should remain for selected weapons in my opinion. This as well creates revenue for the state via license sales for each weapon. Thats my opinion and has been discussed on other threads.
Yep today is much better than the 70's in many aspects. Of course if it wasnt for the sacrifices of hunters from way back we wouldnt have had the 70's. I guess when the DNR reintroduced deer into this state they could have sold a million tags for everyone to chase a few deer down. LOL So, with fewer bucks availible and harvest of buck increasing, why not limit them in some way? Why not create more doe harvest through EAB program?
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Post by schoolmaster on Oct 10, 2005 19:38:19 GMT -5
There are many hunters because of job, family and other demands simply do not have the time to invest to hunt down a particular buck. Hunting during the rut gives them a chance to bag a respectable animal. Lets get down to tacks if deer hunting was easy everybody would hunt and everybody would have a trophy buck on the wall. Also I am sure that more deer are wounded and lost during gun season than archery season. There are a lot more gun hunters out there. I also know from friends that bowhunt that a fair number of deer are lost with archery tackle as well. Either from a bad hit, or not being able to track/recover the animal. When they told me how many deer that they had shot and lost I was shocked. Their percentage had to be much higher than with a gun. I personally have found 3 nice bucks that were shot by archery hunters and never recovered. I believe that every hunter should have to pass a test of their shooting skills before being issued a license. Also Indiana should make every hunter choose one weapon to hunt with and use for the whole season. I would like to see gun hunters restricted to using a single shot gun for deer hunting. I believe this would cut down on the "hope" shots. I would like to see the number of hunters conducting a deer drive restricted to two for safety reasons. I believe the deer herd in Indiana should be managed so that the most hunters can get an opportunity to harvest a deer. It should not be managed for the trophy hunters.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 10, 2005 19:45:07 GMT -5
I've seen that picture and heard everything from Iowa to Missouri... Kansas. Does anyone really know where it's from ? Not being sarcastic...a serious question... Youre right... Anything like that hits the net and it changes quite frequently. I've seen some whopper deer that must have been gypsies as they were all over the map. The person that sent it to me said it was Kansas..I just took him at his word..
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