idhmc
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Post by idhmc on Oct 10, 2005 20:46:03 GMT -5
Schoolmaster, People make sacrifices for their family, work and the extra luxury that they can. So too, do hunters. Hunters often make the sacrifice to use their vacation to hunt. Depending on a persons priority, A sacrifice is made either way. Because a person chooses to take vacation time to hunt doesnt mean they should lobby far extra Holiday's to get time off. All animals are respectable in my eyes. Whether a person takes a yearling or a Monster Buck or even a Doe, that animal deserves respect. As you pointed out, animal get wounded every now and then. What proportion of hunters types do the most wounding is not an avenue to discuss nor travel. It happens and each of us hate it. I share you wishing on proficiant testing but that is just not going to happen in Indiana. The deer herd in Indiana is already managed for hunter opertunity. The state cant kill the deer for a person and various hunting organizations work very hard to get more for hunters. By joining an Organization in the state, you help yourself through their hard work. As well, your right, management shouldnt be for trophy hunters but for biological reasons. Thus the proposal to remove the guns from the rut is just a part of each one. Most Trophy hunters utilize the rutting period to achieve there trophy. Most hunting trip by trophy hunters are schedualed around rut times in each state.
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Post by cambygsp on Oct 11, 2005 4:46:49 GMT -5
IDHMC, Those are all very well thought out and L-O-N-G posts. We may be a little off track though. The subject of this thread is WHY some folks think they should get to hunt during a certian time of the year, and no one else should. We have been gun hunting the rut here in Indiana for how long? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ?....The state invited archers to join in by giving them access to the gun season several years back. NOW, some of those want to push a segment of hunters out. If there is a biological reason to not gun hunt the rut....then the same biological reasons exists and apply to bowhunting.....although it may be to a lesser degree, it still exists. My point here is...... Why just move gun hunting....you NEVER see a post where it is suggested that we just stop all rut hunting (bows & guns). Your point about conservation minded folks looking for a bigger challenge.............. Seems to me if they are REALLY looking for a BIGGER challenge they would want MORE gun hunters out there. Isn't it more challenging to bowhunt with LOTS of gun hunters in the woods?
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Post by schoolmaster on Oct 11, 2005 6:19:06 GMT -5
I really believe that if you want to kill a trophy buck in Indiana then the bowhunters have the edge because the absolute best time is the last week of Oct and the first week of Nov. when the bucks are in the seeking phase of the rut. I would gladly give up the rut hunt with a gun and take those two weeks to gun hunt.
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Post by mbogo on Oct 11, 2005 7:37:12 GMT -5
Hunters need to remember that it is not the responsibility of the DNR to provide them with a trophy buck, any buck, or even any deer. If a person fails to kill an animal they need look no further than themselves to assign blame. Too many people seem to think they are owed a deer or trophy buck.
Even the best shooter makes a bad shot every now and then. It happens to everyone sooner or later and the only way to completely avoid it is to never take a shot. Considering all the things that can go wrong while shooting at a wild animal in the woods, it is a testament to the skill and dedication of the majority of hunters that it doesn't happen more often than it does.
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Post by Woody Williams on Oct 11, 2005 8:33:33 GMT -5
Hunters need to remember that it is not the responsibility of the DNR to provide them with a trophy buck, any buck, or even any deer. If a person fails to kill an animal they need look no further than themselves to assign blame. Too many people seem to think they are owed a deer or trophy buck. Even the best shooter makes a bad shot every now and then. It happens to everyone sooner or later and the only way to completely avoid it is to never take a shot. Considering all the things that can go wrong while shooting at a wild animal in the woods, it is a testament to the skill and dedication of the majority of hunters that it doesn't happen more often than it does. BINGO!!!KY hunts rifles in the rut and within a day or two of our season length and they are on a tear producing B & C bucks.. In some zones their doe take is UNLIMITED.. Illinois gun hunt out of MOST of the rut , but has a two buck limit. Ohio hunt mostly out of the rut but has those dreaded crossbows.. IMO - We seem to tinker too much with seasons just to grow trophy bucks for folks that cant seem to find and kill them all by theirselves.. They ARE out there already..
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Post by cambygsp on Oct 11, 2005 8:52:44 GMT -5
Actually we are fortunate that the seasons don't get tinkered with all that much here in Indiana, considering how are game management seems to geared towards "WHO" screams the loudest.
I hope to see sounder decisions made by our DNR without so much fanfare. I think we pay these folks to make decisions and we should allow that to take place. If you disagree with their decisions, let it be known at the ballot box on election day.
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Post by Rick Lyon on Oct 11, 2005 9:57:42 GMT -5
Question: When people talk of moving the gun season out of the "rut", just which rut are they referencing? The "Peak rut" / "peak breeding"? Typically the first two weeks of Nov. can be defined as the "pre-rut" or the PEAK ACTIVITY stage. This is when the bucks are everywhere! Now when gun season rolls around, we normally catch the tail end of that, but for the most part firearms is during "peak breeding" and this is when big buck activity is normally the lowest. They are holed up with does during the daylight for 2-3 days at a time. The "peak" is the absolute WORST time to take a big buck. The big boys get killed at this time because of the sheer numbers of hunters afield at this time, NOT because this is their most "vulnerable" time frame. I've been in Iowa during a firearm season. Hunters line up and drive woodlot after woodlot because of limited time. Boy, that's a real challenging method isn't it? This style of hunting was confirmed with a conversation with one of their biologist. It would be the same way here. There is not anybody that likes to hunt for big bucks more than myself. But at what cost? Think about it folks; Is that really what we want ?
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Post by cambygsp on Oct 11, 2005 10:28:18 GMT -5
No Rick....what some folks seem to want is to have it ALL to themselves, and the heck with everyone else!
It's crazy that so many "say" they love the sport, yet are so dis-satisfied with it.
It's also crazy that so many "claim" to be seeking more of a challenge...yet they want seasons, regulations and changes made to make it easier to kill that monster that was supposed to provide more of a challenge.
It's just CRAZY!!!!!
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idhmc
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Post by idhmc on Oct 11, 2005 11:50:09 GMT -5
Sorry for the long winded posts but I would rather explain in length than to be misunderstood. I often post but my meaning is lost because I cant get my point across in shorthand LOL. Its my lack of ability to do so but at the same time I hope that everyone understands that im just trying to get my opinion out without confusion. Sorry again.
Camby,
Yes, we may have gotten off the subject title a little bit but at my defence im suggesting that some people will jump on the bandwagon for possibly the wrong reasons. Just like High Fence operators joining a state organization to throw it out of kilter. I have very little interest in "Why" people want a proposed move of the rut for anything other than biological needs within the herd in our state. Many of them do it for petty reasons and selfish ones. Regardless, these people will still help when final count of opinion to move comes to a head.
Your right about the (making no differance gun or bow for biological reasons), As far as im concerned the time frame could be antlerless only. It should make a large dent in the herd with this settup. It could be a 3 year trial to study the results.
As for your Point.... Your right again, the only thing I can offer is that there are far more bowhunters on these forums today that gun hunters. Most bow hunters are seasoned and have a love for the sport moreso. Hunting deer is on their minds year round and not just the night before opening season.
I would have to say No to the (more challenging with more gun hunters out there) for the simple fact that there is more of a push of deer with the intrusion of man into the deers home. More deer moving for more than just the natural act of the rut. True Blue hunter want to harvest their animal in natrual stakes rather than pushes.IMO And believe me, its hard enough to get a buck to stop in a shooting lane while trailing a doe let alone when he is running for cover.
In your other post.... Your "Hope" will soon be granted with the study work by the Pennsylvaina DNR. They are currently working on the effects of inferior male breeding of doe's. So much of the biological effects will have framework to go by. Their state has began a antler restriction... thats something I DONT want to see in Indiana. No need in it when other options are availible. Just too restrictive towards individual hunters.
schoolmast and Rick Lyon,
As for the "Rut" that is spoken of, the timeframe that is referred is around November 1 through to November 30. Around Nov 1-10 some 26% of the adult does are bred, Nov 11-20 31% of the adult does are bred, and Nov 21-30 16% adult does are bred. The later stages of the rut have shown to be breeding periods of the doe fawns that have reached breeding maturity due to their early births. All other times are are 8% and lower for breeding. This is data is from 99-00 and is a little old, maybe JB has some newer numbers. "It's crazy that so many "say" they love the sport, yet are so dis-satisfied with it." Elivating the sport comes in many differant avenues. Looking out and enhancing our prey and the sport we love has been, and will, always need changes. How can anything get better if work for improvement are not at least tried?? Gain for tomorrow through sacrifice and hard work with the understanding of a coservation minded approch.
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Post by jkd on Oct 11, 2005 12:26:51 GMT -5
Rick and Woody hit the nail on the head....
I ask the same question on the IBA site and never got a response... biologically speaking, the "rut" runs from mid-October through early January, as a good percentage of does don't "take" during early breeding, and come into estrous later, hence the "secondary rut" in December. So to say, "Let's take guns out of the rut..." meaning what? Start gun season in mid-January?
Gun hunters have enough factors weighing against them already: squirrel hunters, coon hunters (stirring deer and contaminating the woods with human/dog scent), loose dogs, deteriorating weather conditions as compared to earlier fall patterns, crop harvest/tillage just before season opener changing established deer movement patterns, poachers/trespassers interrupting hunts, nocturnal bucks resulting from hunting pressure during early bow season, and so on...
And at a time when overall deer population is at record levels (Camby is right, and if you don't think so, give Jim Mitchell a call, and take note of all those "B" counties on the bonus map...), IDNR is not going to move the season of ANY weapon which would make it less likely that a hunter is going to take a deer!
OBR is still in effect, so all us "shoot'em on sight" gun hunters are still limited to ONE BUCK, just like everyone else, and that's IDNR's test case for producing more mature bucks. BTW, very, very few deer are taken by guns at ranges > 100 yards.
I bow hunt too, but I am frankly astounded at the clamor on the IBA site from bow-only hunters to so radically diminish gun hunting season length and timing. I've got one for you on the counter-point - move the start of early bow season back to November 1...! That will leave all kinds of mature bucks in the woods, now won't it...
But I would never seriously propose such a change, nor be in favor of the "guns out of rut' proposal, because right now, the priority is CONTROLLING THE DEER POPULATION, and if we don't accomplish that, OBR, QDMA, "improving sex ratio", whatever you want to call it, will be tossed out the window. Furthermore, IDNR has a hard enough time analyzing harvest data from year to year without throwing yet another variable into the pot at this point in time.
I will tell everyone on this site, be they bow-hunter, gun hunter, black powder, x-bow, whatever... we need to be taking more does, stop working to limit each other's weapon/season opportunities, and we need to work with IDNR to get more realistic license fees in place. IMHO, higher fees = out of control deer population, period.
As Red Green says, "We're all in this together..." - I have respect for BOTH bow hunters and gun hunters, "cause I are one..."
KD
PS Started bow hunting at 16 with a Ben Pearson wood-limb compound (one of the first compound bows made)... I'm 50 now, so do the math bowmen... now hunting with ol' reliable Bear First Strike XL and Mossberg 500 Trophy Slugster, finishing up with a TC Hawken .54 smokepole. I love deer hunting, and I love hunting with all weapons.
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Post by hunter7x on Oct 11, 2005 14:23:08 GMT -5
Sorry JKD I don't see your view on a lot of that.
"Gun hunters have enough factors weighing against them already: squirrel hunters, coon hunters (stirring deer and contaminating the woods with human/dog scent), loose dogs, deteriorating weather conditions as compared to earlier fall patterns, crop harvest/tillage just before season opener changing established deer movement patterns, poachers/trespassers interrupting hunts, nocturnal bucks resulting from hunting pressure during early bow season, and so on..."
Gun hunters have all this against them ? Seems to me like we all have all of this against us.
"I've got one for you on the counter-point - move the start of early bow season back to November 1...! That will leave all kinds of mature bucks in the woods, now won't it..."
Yes it would leave some mature bucks but only until gun season started.
I do agree 100% that we all as deer hunters need to get along and try to see what is best for the overall sport. We have serious issues up and coming with leasing and lease agents, increased tag prices...making this a rich mans sport. Declining hunter numbers, a generation of kids coming up who would rather sit in front of the Xbox than in a tree stand. Regardless of my views about what a gun season does to a herd, I do think over all the IDNR does a good job. I am thankful that I don't live in Arizona where to hunt the big game animals in my home state I have to get drawn for a tag.
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Post by jkd on Oct 11, 2005 16:06:05 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]Gun hunters have all this against them ? Seems to me like we all have all of this against us.[/glow]
I'd agree with that... my point was in response to a lot of the stuff on the IBA site that came off like gun hunters had a done deal because of the rut and the weapon... any gun hunter can tell you that most years they either get skunked or take a doe and it's a good year when they get a good buck... nothing easy about it, I don't care what weapon you're carrying...
I'm old enough to remember when you couldn't hunt deer in Indiana except at Atterbury and Crane, etc., and I think a lot of hoosier hunters don't fully appreciate the opportunities we all have now...
I hear you on the AZ thing...
KD
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idhmc
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Post by idhmc on Oct 11, 2005 16:20:54 GMT -5
www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=465&q=151427Here is a link for you JKD As far as your argument of "Hunting Factors for Gun hunters", to me this is just a unreasonable outcry that weights very little considering the fact that Early Bowhunters also encounter those excuses mentioned, as well, we have the Ginseng hunters along with the high temps that lead to insect problems and the scent due to the workout it takes to get into the stand, excessive cover making seeing deer difficult at close range to ready themselves, etc. etc.... With fewer and fewer Archers in the early season the amount of "Presure" is reduced. I just dont see were this could justify reasoning for Gun hunting to remain in the season as it is. As for "record levels", If I had one deer on my property this year and two next year that would mean I was at a "Record Level". Dont get me wrong, I know that there are area's of the state that need herd control. All the more reason for season or program manditory involvement of the hunters availible. If they are not going to do it on their own to help the state reduce the deer, a program is going to have to be implemented to force the issue. "Taking a Deer" is fine in that season but the obvious need for doe reduction over buck harvest is evident. The seasons platform could and needs to be changed to focus on Biological standard as they have been before the intervention of man/hunter. Still yet another defencive post that many feel is a "slap in the face to gunhunters", well, its not. While the timeframe in question happens to be when the firearms season is in, the weapon is not the issue as its much more the breeding season as well as the amount of hunters in it. Firearms hunters have proven to be the reducing factor in the management of past. Future management stratogies, as we grow and learn through science, give us a new light on how management and how to better for the future. We stand in its way?? "I've got one for you on the counter-point - move the start of early bow season back to November 1...! That will leave all kinds of mature bucks in the woods, now won't it..." Yeah, that'll showem... On a realistic note, the harvest reports show that very few bucks are being harvested by percentage as of todate. Again, the harshness of a hunter trying to fight and argue over who gets to go first instead of making strides hand in hand with each other to better the deer herd. I ask you, who is right and wrong while fighting between fellow hunters for first dibs when the effort is aimed toward Bioloical effects??? "CONTROLLING THE DEER POPULATION"... Let me ask you this, What portion of the sex type is most out of control??? I thought so. Yet still, a gunhunter wants to maintain the most vulerable time slot for what reason? I dont know. Is it the fact that gunhunters are not willing to help with the population "problem" as you say? Is that 'Time honored tradition" of the time slot more important that managing for a Natural Biological herd? Have we not sustained our traditions and heritage all the while to improve?? Im sorry, but Im just lost for words for the reason someone wouldnt want to help support, promote, and encourage quality management for a better tomorrow. "I will tell everyone on this site, be they bow-hunter, gun hunter, black powder, x-bow, whatever... we need to be taking more does, stop working to limit each other's weapon/season opportunities, and we need to work with IDNR to get more realistic license fees in place. IMHO, higher fees = out of control deer population, period." I would also ask the same, but a very small group of online users is too little to make a dent in the time needed for "realistic" production effect. Even with education from us all to non users the deer herd is growing faster than we can work.
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Post by jkd on Oct 11, 2005 16:52:47 GMT -5
IDHMC, Do you gun hunt? ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/shocked.png) I'm trying to get my brain to wrap around your post, but I'm having trouble... Not sure what harvest numbers you're looking at, but gun harvest accounts for the largest percentage of both does and bucks, so I would say gun hunters are doing the majority of population control. So are you proposing that ALL hunting stop during the "peak rut", or just guns? Or are you saying that bowhunters should be allowed to hunt all through the season? So... you're agreeing that all hunters face the same problematic factors, and that hunting during "rut" isn't a "magic bullet" for any hunting group/weapon? IDNR sets the seasons based on herd management priorities. Gun hunters didn't call Central Office and say "we want gun season end of November..." As a multi-weapon hunter, I'm not against QDM... I'm just trying to understand your logic as to how reducing the effectiveness of the primary population control mechanism (gun season) and allowing the population to get further out of control is going to result in better herd structure... ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) ? KD
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idhmc
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Post by idhmc on Oct 11, 2005 20:17:13 GMT -5
OK???
I believe if you slow down and read my post(s) they are very self explanitory. I dont want to re-run the same post over and over for the fact that a thread will lose attention by the views many times.
I'll answer in short though.
I know who does the majority of the harvest. I do see the numbers each year.
I'm for a proposal that is realistic that keeps key on biological advancement of the herd.
Yes we have the same problems while hunting and NO, Hunting the rut is BY FAR the easiest time of year to bag a Buck.
"IDNR sets the seasons based on herd management priorities. Gun hunters didn't call Central Office and say "we want gun season end of November...""
LOL.. Im very well aware of that.
The IDNR focuses on keeping season so they dont lose the ability to control the herd. The Buck herd in quality management regards are out of control because of the skewed sex ratio and maturity level. Having a firearms for bucks out of the rut dont cause them to lose control of the herd but rather makes the shift towards antlerless reduction.
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