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Post by steveb on Apr 7, 2007 13:17:09 GMT -5
Hey Steve: A word of warning on the Aircooled WW 180s... they are a touch too hard if you don't catch bone. Mine mushroomed barely/not at all as far as I can tell from the exit wound on my PA doe. I'm going to try a little nose-annealing to soften it up enough to get a bit more expansion (that or casting 2-part bullets) Here's an annealing article: castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=14178&highlight=nose+annealThe important bit: ------------------------------- Anealing the nose of a HTWW bullet is real easy to do. Stand the bullets up in a shallow pan (pie plate) and fill it up with cold water to just at or above the crimp groove. Put a drop of water on the nose (assuming it's a flat point). Heat the nose with a propane torch working both sides of the nose. When the water cooks off your there. Don't hit the drop of water directly with the flame. Leave the bullets standing up until cooled. A more consistent method is to get a 300 degree Tempil stick from a welding supply house. I've tested 30 caliber annealed nose bullets in wet newspaper and they react like Nosler Partitions. Also tested them in one deer. Explosive expansion then the hard shank penetrates deeply. I'm not much of a fan for casting softpoints, and yes I've tried it. Good way to warp and destroy a fine mold. Also, if the mold is casting "just" big enough normally, it's very likely to throw a smaller bullet from the excessive heat. No flaming, just my experience. All of the above methods are trick and have there place, I guess. I've found that following 45 2.1 advise and mixing an alloy of 50/50 WW-Pb solves a lot of problems. When heat treated it hardens to 18-21 Bhn and still expands well above 1,400 fps. Not just riveting and small fragments, but real mushrooms that hold there shape well or fragment into one or two large petals. This alloy is also more accurate than straight HTWW's in every gun I own. ------------------------------------- Thanks for that link O.I. I know Paco explains this in his leverguns book as well. I had this bag of fertilizer charge me and I had to put it down and do some informal ballistic testing in the process ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) . Now I'm sure derr will be different than a bag of fertilizer but here are the results and recovered (air cooled/straight WW) cast slugs from that test. Heres the C358-180-RF ![](http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/stevensavage/C358-180-RFexpansionpics.jpg) And the Ranch Dog TLC432-285-RF ![](http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/stevensavage/RDexpancologe.jpg) That day I also had a couple jugs of water try to attack me ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) and they had to be put down as well. ;D ![](http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m193/stevensavage/GrabbedFrame1.jpg) Woody, I sent you a message and dont know if you got it but I was down in your area last week. Me and the wife past through Warrick Co on the way to New Harmony. I never realized there was oil in Indiana. Oil pumps everywhere down there.
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 7, 2007 13:23:49 GMT -5
I got it and I apologize for not getting back to you. Anytime anyone is down here in southern Indiana let me know and we can do coffee somewhere. Oh yeah . I've got three in my backyard pumping 100 barrels a day each. I WISH!! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 7, 2007 13:25:51 GMT -5
Steve,
Not being nosey, just interested in doing the same.
What kind of money do you have in your lever gun?
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Post by Old Ironsights on Apr 7, 2007 13:30:14 GMT -5
Thanks for that link O.I. I know Paco explains this in his leverguns book as well. I had this bag of fertilizer charge me and I had to put it down and do some informal ballistic testing in the process ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) . Now I'm sure derr will be different than a bag of fertilizer but here are the results and recovered (air cooled/straight WW) cast slugs from that test. That day I also had a couple jugs of water try to attack me ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) and they had to be put down as well. ;D I remember those attacks. You were all shook up about them and posted the pics on Leverguns.... ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) I just know that in pure-soft-tissue (somehow missed every rib) my .357-180 left n exit wound that was only barely .45 Made meat, but I would have preferred somthing in the .50 - .60+ exit hole range.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Apr 7, 2007 13:33:16 GMT -5
Steve, Not being nosey, just interested in doing the same. What kind of money do you have in your lever gun? Steve has less in his than I do mine, since he did most of the work himself whereas I had Steve Young (stevesgunz.com) build mine, but I have just around $800 for mine. That includes NIB stainless gun, Bead Blast, Action work, Williams FP, FFL & shiping. ![](http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/myrossi357.jpg)
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Post by Woody Williams on Apr 7, 2007 13:50:58 GMT -5
$800..... Oh...
Not sure I'm ready to leap into that deep of water yet.
Maybe just a plain Jane blue with the Williams sights to start with.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Apr 7, 2007 13:58:32 GMT -5
Well, I DID have a "pro" work it over for me. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Plain Jane Blue @ $400ish will work just fine. I'm just a nut for Stainless, and not confident enough a machineist to be mucking around with the metal myself.
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Post by drs on Apr 7, 2007 14:02:41 GMT -5
$800..... Oh... Not sure I'm ready to leap into that deep of water yet. Maybe just a plain Jane blue with the Williams sights to start with. You might try a Williams "Firesight" front first, Woody. I have one on my Ruger M-77/44 and it works as well as a scope, since the .44 Mag. is a short ranged caliber. Be sure, if you go that route, to get a slightly higher front sight when using a peep sight. I have a Williams Rifle Bead front .538 M #60237 and a NECG brand Receiver sight for a Ruger Rifle, which should work fine if you buy a Ruger M-96.
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Post by steveb on Apr 7, 2007 14:25:34 GMT -5
When I got my stainless Rossi about four years ago I gave 350.00 for it. I just checked the EMF website and for a stainless carbine chambered in 357 it is right around 470.00., blued for 420.00 or color case hardened for 430.00 www.emf-company.com/1892-winchester-rifle-carbine.htm You can order right through EMF and have it shipped to your local FFL for around 25.00. The price on the website is the price you pay for it. I dont think I paid any more than that when I had Maggie shipped through them. When I checked on getting a Rossi 92 with the case hardened reciever I checked my local shop and they said they could order me one but it was gonna be more than what I could go and order one myself through EMF and have it shipped. I bypassed my local dealer and just went through EMF and had it shipped to my FFL. IIRC I gave 430.00 for it as well .Now my stainless Rossi 92 is imported through LSI(Puma) So figure 470.00 if you want to go stainless. 15.00 bucks for the Marbles front sight 45-50 bucks for the Williams FP reciever sight. Now if you go with a Rossi (Puma) imported through Legacy Sports (LSI) you can get one that already has the fiber optic sight.http://www.legacysports.com/products/puma/index.html As far as an action job, they are easy to slick up and work on IMO. All my Rossi's are slicker than snot on a doorknob. I have mine set up so I never have to take my thumb off the pistol grip when on target. I just rack the lever with my fingers so I keep that front sight on target. Here is a link to an article with good picts and tutorial of the process if you can or like doing your own work. www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/rossi.htm If not, I hear Steve Young of www.stevesgunz.com does fantastic work. He's located down in Texas and I'm not sure what he charges for an action job though. Just ask O.I. how slick his Rossi is. I wish we could hook up and compare Rossi's
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Post by steveb on Apr 7, 2007 14:32:56 GMT -5
Woody, check your messages.
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Post by steveb on Apr 7, 2007 14:47:00 GMT -5
When I bought the Williams FP it came with two front firesights for a front ramp. They are bright but the Marbles green is just as bright IMO. Marbles has them in red as well. I dont think you will be dissapointed with either brands or colors IMO.
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Post by indianahick on Apr 7, 2007 15:14:10 GMT -5
Okay I will admit that I do not know as much about rate of twist as I should. I think that it means on turn in x amount of inches. Like once in 28. The tighter the rate of twist the more spin on the projectile, the more spin the straighter it will fly, unless it is spun down to wards the ground or in a down and to the side angle. Kind of like a curve, slider, drop ball pitch in baseball. Am I close on that thinking? Now then that aside what rate of twist would someone want to look for in a PCR and which brands seemingly are the best. Now I would guess that like my Knight and Savage ML's you would have to try several different brands, weights of projectile and powder to find the one that any of these firearms would like and shoot the most accurately. Personally I will admit I need some help here. I am leaning to wards either a Ruger or Marlin in either 44 mag or 357.
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Post by steveb on Apr 7, 2007 16:21:18 GMT -5
Okay I will admit that I do not know as much about rate of twist as I should. I think that it means on turn in x amount of inches. Like once in 28. The tighter the rate of twist the more spin on the projectile, the more spin the straighter it will fly, unless it is spun down to wards the ground or in a down and to the side angle. Kind of like a curve, slider, drop ball pitch in baseball. Am I close on that thinking? Now then that aside what rate of twist would someone want to look for in a PCR and which brands seemingly are the best. Now I would guess that like my Knight and Savage ML's you would have to try several different brands, weights of projectile and powder to find the one that any of these firearms would like and shoot the most accurately. Personally I will admit I need some help here. I am leaning to wards either a Ruger or Marlin in either 44 mag or 357. This is something I need to learn more about myself. IIRC the Rossi 92's also have a 1:38 twist rate and those 285 grain cast slugs seem to shoot just fine. Any heavier than that I do not know about.
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Post by JohnSmiles on Apr 7, 2007 17:34:10 GMT -5
Well, I am not an expert by any means, but I can offer some basics about rifle twist. Yes, it is expressed by how many inches a bullet must travel to complete one rotation. 1 in 9" twist means a bullet rotates once for every 9 inches it travels. For everything except round balls, rotation helps to stabilize the bullet and keep it flying true and point forward. 'Perfectly' round balls would not benefit much, if any at all, from twist rates. Now, the longer the bullet, the faster twist rate is required to stabilize it. Anyone who has shot the 60 gr. 22 sss aguila subsonics is aware of the problems with 'key-holing', a common problem when the rate of twist is to slow. Most 22's were not meant to fire a bullet 50% longer and heavier than standard, and few standard rifles will stabilize them well. Now, free-bore, chamber tolerances, type of rifling and a few other things also play a part in accurate ammo of course. To put it simply, in most cases you will not run into rifling twist issues unless you are shooting the heavier bullets. Now, having said that, keep in mind that 'sometimes' a gun will shoot the heaviest of bullets as well as any others. Go figure. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) In general, if you know what caliber you want, and you know what the choices are, the one with the fastest rate of twist will be the best choice for using heavier bullets. Hope this helped more than it confused . . . lol If I have any of it wrong, I am sure there are plenty of ballistics guru's here who can jump in and line it out for us both. ;D
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Post by Old Ironsights on Apr 8, 2007 14:26:17 GMT -5
Here's a better shot of the Rossi/Williams FP mount: ![](http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/BBSS35792a.jpg)
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