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Post by hunter480 on Sept 9, 2006 20:44:13 GMT -5
Everyone says the jumps in record book entries was already occuring. So what if we go back to a 2 buck limit and it drops back to where it was befor the OBR? This is physically impossible-it simply CAN NOT happen. Re-read the harvest figures-the buck kill has been rising during the OBR, NOT dropping, therefore it`s made ZERO difference. Indiana is blessed with copious amounts of food and cover for white-tails, and some good genetics as well, and THAT is why Indiana has ranked in the top ten states for B&C and P&Y entries. The OBR has done nothing but spread the buck kills over a different timeframe. |
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Post by lugnutz on Sept 9, 2006 23:15:21 GMT -5
Don't we need to kill less bucks? Greg your killin' yourself buddy, if you like the obr, thats great but your shooting yourself in the foot on each post. You may want to think about what your saying, and step back and look at the overall picture of what the harvest results prove.
Lug
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Post by cedararrow on Sept 10, 2006 15:40:59 GMT -5
how about this...
<EDIT>
Woody you can write me up for that I dont care at this point.
WW - Yes sir. I will edit that comment. The rest can stand.
Im sick of reading how people want to hunt two bucks and how the obr didnt have a hand in the age structure shift. The data shows it. Everyone says the bucks were there before the OBR. you are right!!! The obr did however make more hunters aware of the opportunites that hunting big deer gave them. It said hey think about this. If you kill this basket you dont get a second chance are you sure. IF you were not a trophy at the beginning you arent now its that simple. But if you wanted to kill a big buck but still shot a basket... now you are an educated hunter that realizes killing the small ones wont get you the big one. OBR CREATED AWARENESS.
Now if you are a proponent of the obr like i have been so outspoken about being on your side. Just walk away from this. Its like beating a dead horse. Shove the numbers in your pocket and walk away. I know what you are trying to say and I know we are trying to merely point out that the obr has created an age structure. By saying that it did it by limiting the number of bucks killed isnt going to get anywhere with anyone. The fact is that bucks are being killed at the same clip as ever before. The only difference over the four years is that people are now thinking twice and waiting longer before they pummel that small one. By waiting longer they run the risk of not getting one. Its those ones that make it and those hunters that are willing to eat their tag that are making the big difference. Through awareness thats the only way the obr has succeeded. Now everyone that knows me from the other site can give me as much crap as they want for what I have said. But I am tired of seeing grown men act like children fighting over a Tonka truck. Woody I say any thread that gets tied into the OBR gets locked down and we start focusing on what we are all here for. Hunting. I am going to say I hope the OBR stays. Not because i want to kill a big one every year, but because I like the idea that it educates people and creates awareness about deer herd macro management. Alright all you anti-obr guys can tear that apart if you like but it does it makes people aware that a buck isnt mature and hasnt had a chance to improve the herd until at least three years old. It gives more people more time in the woods by improving their idea of what a small buck means to be dead.
GUYS JUST GO HUNT ITS A GREAT FALL AFTERNOON OUTSIDE THE BEST FOUR MONTHS OF THE YEAR ARE UPON US. LETS SET THIS ASIDE AND ENJOY THE TIME OF YEAR WE ALL LOVE TO SEE BLOWING IN ON THE WIND. ITS FALL OUT LETS GO HUNTING.
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Post by hunter480 on Sept 10, 2006 18:55:58 GMT -5
how about this... <EDIT>Woody you can write me up for that I dont care at this point. WW - Yes sir. I will edit that comment. The rest can stand.Im sick of reading how people want to hunt two bucks and how the obr didnt have a hand in the age structure shift. The data shows it. Everyone says the bucks were there before the OBR. you are right!!! The obr did however make more hunters aware of the opportunites that hunting big deer gave them. It said hey think about this. If you kill this basket you dont get a second chance are you sure. IF you were not a trophy at the beginning you arent now its that simple. But if you wanted to kill a big buck but still shot a basket... now you are an educated hunter that realizes killing the small ones wont get you the big one. OBR CREATED AWARENESS. Now if you are a proponent of the obr like i have been so outspoken about being on your side. Just walk away from this. Its like beating a dead horse. Shove the numbers in your pocket and walk away. I know what you are trying to say and I know we are trying to merely point out that the obr has created an age structure. By saying that it did it by limiting the number of bucks killed isnt going to get anywhere with anyone. The fact is that bucks are being killed at the same clip as ever before. The only difference over the four years is that people are now thinking twice and waiting longer before they pummel that small one. By waiting longer they run the risk of not getting one. Its those ones that make it and those hunters that are willing to eat their tag that are making the big difference. Through awareness thats the only way the obr has succeeded. Now everyone that knows me from the other site can give me as much crap as they want for what I have said. But I am tired of seeing grown men act like children fighting over a Tonka truck. Woody I say any thread that gets tied into the OBR gets locked down and we start focusing on what we are all here for. Hunting. I am going to say I hope the OBR stays. Not because i want to kill a big one every year, but because I like the idea that it educates people and creates awareness about deer herd macro management. Alright all you anti-obr guys can tear that apart if you like but it does it makes people aware that a buck isnt mature and hasnt had a chance to improve the herd until at least three years old. It gives more people more time in the woods by improving their idea of what a small buck means to be dead. GUYS JUST GO HUNT ITS A GREAT FALL AFTERNOON OUTSIDE THE BEST FOUR MONTHS OF THE YEAR ARE UPON US. LETS SET THIS ASIDE AND ENJOY THE TIME OF YEAR WE ALL LOVE TO SEE BLOWING IN ON THE WIND. ITS FALL OUT LETS GO HUNTING. cedararrow-I`m only going to address the very end of your post, and that is one thing I believe you`re right about. It is coming up on "Christmas time" for all of us, the days will start getting shorter and cooler, and we`ll be as restless as the bucks will be waiting for the does to come into estrus. Let`s go huntin`. ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by racktracker on Sept 10, 2006 19:20:08 GMT -5
Cedar Arrow,
You can get whizzed all that you want, but the talk here as been pretty cordial compared to some others that I have seen and participated in.
I whole heartedly disagree on your statement of “OBR CREATED AWARENESS.”
The AWARENESS was already there for a LOT of hunters. I’d even go far to say MOST hunters were very aware and were being already being selective.
The OBR proponents are saying that the OBR did it,. Nothing else is even halfway considered by them as being responsible for any age shift or seeing/harvesting bigger bucks.
At least most of the anti-OBR hunters are saying that the OBR could be PARTIALLY responsible.
The pro - OBR guys say no – it is the OBR period.
Well guess what? Even the head deer biologist in the DNR who has managed our deer very well for 25 or better years say he is not sure that the OBR is making a difference. This is an expert in his field. He even has a doctorate in it. He has all of the DNR at his disposal and has multitudes of Indiana deer data at his fingertips. He has had his finger on the pulse of the deer herd for decades and he says he does not know if the OBR has made a difference or whether it is selective hunters prior to the OBR.
Now if he doesn’t know how in the world could a bunch of deer hunters say “It’s the OBR” ? Because they want to believe in it so much that they turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to any other argument.
Who should we beleive him or the pro-OBR hunters?
The overwhelming bulk of the deer huntable properties in Indiana is private ground,. WHY do I, as a owner of deer hunting property, have to tailor my deer management to what other are doing on their properties?
If you want to hunt and kill only one buck have at it. You and the rest of the OBR hunters can knock yourselves out and hunt and kill only one buck any time you want. In the meantime what is it to you or anyone else if I want to hunt a second buck if I am so lucky to connect on the first?
6,000 double dippers prior to the OBR did NOT make that much of a difference.
This is all a matter of control. The pro-OBR hunters want to control how others hunt. To me that is very, very poor.
The DNR should not let deer hunters set deer management policies.
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Post by cedararrow on Sept 10, 2006 20:50:46 GMT -5
I get whizzed when people try to shove bs numbers down my throat... There is clearly an incline in overall record book bucks. If its not the OBR and its not awareness and the old style was more than adequate how in the world are all these changes taking place.
if X+Y=Z then X+Y can not =A its that simple. There needs to be something changing it. If you want to claim that the awareness was already in place thats fine, but if thats the truth then shouldnt we have been seeing bigger deer from the first mass produced hunting videos called Monster Bucks. That was probably the biggest form of awareness. That was 14 years ago. Sure it may have climbed slowly but over the last four years the number of record book bucks is climbing rapidly. How does it happen if it isnt awareness and its not OBR.... explain that to everyone that wants to know.
The whole Indiana game and fish deer biologist mumbo is garbage. A car mechanic will tell you that he thinks you need new brakes if it means that you will spend your money at his shop. Anybody that gets paid by the Indiana Government is working for them doing what they want them to do. Its pretty easy to see that. Im not saying he doesnt know what he is talking about but I am saying that he will tell you what it takes to get the money his bosses are telling him he should be getting.
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Post by greghopper on Sept 10, 2006 21:35:38 GMT -5
Everyone says the jumps in record book entries was already occuring. So what if we go back to a 2 buck limit and it drops back to where it was befor the OBR? This is physically impossible-it simply CAN NOT happen. Re-read the harvest figures-the buck kill has been rising during the OBR, NOT dropping, therefore it`s made ZERO difference. Indiana is blessed with copious amounts of food and cover for white-tails, and some good genetics as well, and THAT is why Indiana has ranked in the top ten states for B&C and P&Y entries. The OBR has done nothing but spread the buck kills over a different timeframe. What ...we have DATA now??? |
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Post by solohunter on Sept 10, 2006 22:41:17 GMT -5
Glad that is settled.....
Solohunter
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Post by mbogo on Sept 11, 2006 5:34:08 GMT -5
 conclusions:1) There has been an average increase of 18% in annual doe harvest. 2)There has been a 10% increase in annual Buck harvest. 3)There has been a 2% increase in the percentage of does in the harvest and a corresponding 2% decrease in the percentage of Bucks that make up the harvest.This means more bucks are being protected under OBR. This data would indicate that OBR is helping to increase the number of does harvested and increase the percentage of does in the harvest. this has been accomplished while actually showing an increase in the buck harvest. Looking at these numbers I'm hard pressed to see why anyone would want to go back to the baseline years. 1. That 18% increase in doe harvest did not occur until 2004 with the bulk of it happening in 05. Why didn't the increase occur immediately in 2002? Answer: Because the antlerless permits were liberalized in 04 and were allowed to be used in early archery in 05. It is just another example of OBR supporters claiming credit for something the obr didn't do. 2. How can you note a 10% increase in the buck harvest then claim we are saving more bucks in the same paragraph? |
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Post by mbogo on Sept 11, 2006 5:44:12 GMT -5
What age structure shift?
Thats an interesting theory about awareness but there is a huge glaring problem with it, you forgot that the OBR only changed the buck limit for the hunter that hunts both archery and firearms season. Gun only hunters are far and away the majority and nothing changed for them with the OBR. I hope you don't seriously think it was the archery hunters that were killing a majority of young bucks. So how is it exactly that the OBR is capable of accomplishing any of the miraculous feats you claim? And if "awareness" is the great accomplishment of the OBR, then now that we are aware we can go back to a two buck limit right?
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Post by mbogo on Sept 11, 2006 5:54:39 GMT -5
I get whizzed when people try to shove bs numbers down my throat... There is clearly an incline in overall record book bucks. If its not the OBR and its not awareness and the old style was more than adequate how in the world are all these changes taking place. if X+Y=Z then X+Y can not =A its that simple. There needs to be something changing it. If you want to claim that the awareness was already in place thats fine, but if thats the truth then shouldnt we have been seeing bigger deer from the first mass produced hunting videos called Monster Bucks. That was probably the biggest form of awareness. That was 14 years ago. Sure it may have climbed slowly but over the last four years the number of record book bucks is climbing rapidly. How does it happen if it isnt awareness and its not OBR.... explain that to everyone that wants to know. The whole Indiana game and fish deer biologist mumbo is garbage. A car mechanic will tell you that he thinks you need new brakes if it means that you will spend your money at his shop. Anybody that gets paid by the Indiana Government is working for them doing what they want them to do. Its pretty easy to see that. Im not saying he doesnt know what he is talking about but I am saying that he will tell you what it takes to get the money his bosses are telling him he should be getting. Ignoring the numbers when they don't say what you want them to say is not a very effective debate tactic. The increasing buck harvest and the increasing number of big bucks is happening because of the continuing reduction in button buck harvest. It seems to me that the problem most people have with our deer biologist is that he is simply not telling them what they want to hear. He doesn't have an agenda and doesn't support their agenda so he must be discredited. |
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Post by mbogo on Sept 11, 2006 6:03:47 GMT -5
In order to believe that the OBR is working you have to, by default believe the following:
1. That a rule change that effects a minority of hunters is capable of making huge changes in a short amount of time.
2. This minority of hunters were killing the majority of young bucks.
3. The majority of bucks being passed up aren't killed later on by someone during firearms season.
4. An overall increase in buck harvest means we are killing fewer bucks.
5. Our state deer biologist doesn't know what he is talking about.
6. No other explanation for the claimed achievements of the OBR is possible.
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Post by cambygsp on Sept 11, 2006 14:59:20 GMT -5
In order to believe that the OBR is working you have to, by default believe the following: 1. That a rule change that effects a minority of hunters is capable of making huge changes in a short amount of time. 2. This minority of hunters were killing the majority of young bucks. 3. The majority of bucks being passed up aren't killed later on by someone during firearms season. 4. An overall increase in buck harvest means we are killing fewer bucks. 5. Our state deer biologist doesn't know what he is talking about. 6. No other explanation for the claimed achievements of the OBR is possible. Hey..... I got some ocean front property in Arizona for sale too! |
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Post by kevin1 on Sept 11, 2006 18:10:39 GMT -5
Which only means that more hunters requested to have their bucks scored and entered , nothing more . More bucks are getting killed , so the number of larger bucks getting killed is bound to rise also , simple math . They have to be there before you can kill them , so how could they not have been there prior to the first OBR year if the kill numbers rose from year 1 on ? Logic can be very inconvenient if you aren't the one using it ...  |
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Post by cedararrow on Sept 11, 2006 18:18:59 GMT -5
Im sticking to my awareness theory. If the OBR didnt shift the age structure its mentality did it.
Whether its biological management that did or mentality awareness. The OBR has had an effect.
Maybe the awareness factor is how the numbers rose in the first year. Or maybe not because that might make a little sense? I am going to say you might be right, i have no problem saying that but im not going to sit here and convince myself that the OBR did nothing. That would be lying to myself and anyone else I talked too about it. It has done something and that something is not deprive you anti OBR guys out of a buck. Ive heard that more times than I care to admit. If someone would come out and say awareness maybe that is one thing it has done correctly, hey end of argument from me. But until someone realizes some logic im not going to say you are right either. I dont think anyone here is adult enough to admit they were wrong. At least thats what I have read so far from everyone involved in those whole debate. I say shut this thing down again. It was much more peaceful when we werent fighting over trivial matters.
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Post by solohunter on Sept 11, 2006 18:31:27 GMT -5
End of poll at this time...roughly 70% say that if there is a permanet OBR, then deer hunting seasons and structure will not be affected.....translated, there will not be crossbows in early archery and no early ML...end of poll......next!!!!
Solohunter
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Post by 1ranger49 on Sept 11, 2006 20:23:55 GMT -5
I have just 1 question for the pro obr hunters.
Now that you are asking the general hunting public to give up shooting more then one buck per year, do you pass up a buck that was a tad smaller then you shot the previous year? How can you settle for anything less then what you may have hanging on your wall?
I know the obr hunters get miffed if someone will shoot a small buck and not give him the chance to mature. Isn’t this the same for you if you shoot a smaller buck then you already have?
That’s’ all I have to say, Urban zone hunting comes in this weekend and I hope I will be out there enjoying “Deer hunting”.
Good luck to all of you this hunting season no matter what you shoot as long as you are happy with it.
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Post by Free-Loader on Sept 11, 2006 20:40:45 GMT -5
Doe meat rocks!!! If I'm going to shoot a buck it better be bigger than the eight pointers on the wall. ranger go do some research on the whitetail deer. I think instead of asking these weekend warriors their opinions you should check out some real data. You can also get this months Petersons Bowhunting magazine. There is a good article in it about taking does.
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Post by lugnutz on Sept 11, 2006 21:06:11 GMT -5
Im sticking to my awareness theory. If the OBR didnt shift the age structure its mentality did it. Whether its biological management that did or mentality awareness. The OBR has had an effect. Maybe the awareness factor is how the numbers rose in the first year. Or maybe not because that might make a little sense? I am going to say you might be right, i have no problem saying that but im not going to sit here and convince myself that the OBR did nothing. That would be lying to myself and anyone else I talked too about it. It has done something and that something is not deprive you anti OBR guys out of a buck. Ive heard that more times than I care to admit. If someone would come out and say awareness maybe that is one thing it has done correctly, hey end of argument from me. But until someone realizes some logic im not going to say you are right either. I dont think anyone here is adult enough to admit they were wrong. At least thats what I have read so far from everyone involved in those whole debate. I say shut this thing down again. It was much more peaceful when we werent fighting over trivial matters. WHO DID IT MAKE AWARE? GUN HUNTERS REPRESENT THE MAJORITY OF HUNTERS. OBR DOESN'T CHANGE ANYTHING WITH THE GUN HUNTERS. WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU HONESTLY THINK IT MAKES A GUN HUNTER AWARE OF THAT THEY WERENT ALREADY AWARE OF? WHAT, JUST ONE BUCK? OBR ONLY DISCOURAGES ARCHERY HUNTERS, OR WANT TO BE ARCHERY HUNTERS, NOT TO BUY AN ARCHERY TAG. WHY WOULD A "ROOKIE" HUNTER THAT MIGHT WANT TO BOW HUNT THAT HAS A 40YRD MAX RANGE, WHEN THEY CAN USE A GUN TO SHOOT 150+ TO KILL HIS ONE BUCK. NOT EXACTLY A GOOD WAY TO PASS THE SPORT OF ARCHERY HUNTING. OBR HAS HAD SEVERAL EFFECTS TO HUNTING, MAJORITY OF THEM AREN'T POSITIVE! LUG LUG |
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Post by greghopper on Sept 12, 2006 5:42:00 GMT -5
Hay Lug...tell them to shoot a DOE...they are in the DEER family TO.Or is this about ANTLER WORSHIPING!!!!!!
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