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Post by greghopper on Sept 8, 2006 16:18:32 GMT -5
[quote author=rmc board=deerhunting thread=1156694355 post=1157721642 We're still waiting for the OBR supporters to explain why the single largest increase in record book entries happened the first year not the second or third year as should have happened if the OBR were responsible. All the 2 DINKS hunters held off and Finally Got them self a nice DEER....The Deer where there they just finally got shot!!!!
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Post by Woody Williams on Sept 8, 2006 17:00:41 GMT -5
[quote author=rmc board=deerhunting thread=1156694355 post=1157721642 We're still waiting for the OBR supporters to explain why the single largest increase in record book entries happened the first year not the second or third year as should have happened if the OBR were responsible. All the 2 DINKS hunters held off and Finally Got them self a nice DEER....The Deer where there they just finally got shot!!!! BINGO!! Thanks again for saying the "deer were there" and proving our point. IF this OBR is about growing big buck deer then how can we grow them any better than the first year when the deer were already there? Isn't that what it is supposed to be all about? We've told you all for the last 4 years that the big bucks are out there all one has to do is HUNT them.
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Post by Woody Williams on Sept 8, 2006 17:02:38 GMT -5
We have an expanding herd on our hands. We are carrying more bucks over because there are a *LOT* more deer, including buttons, now than there was before the OBR began.
Is not the adult buck harvest, adult doe and doe fawn harvest increasing? Does that not tell us something?
Since we are looking at the 4 years of the OBR then we need to go back to 4 years prior to the OBR for the totals - 1998.
Since 1998…
Adult buck kill - increased 7,493 for a percentage increase of 16.6%.
Adult doe kill - increased 13,515 for a percentage increase of 44%
Doe fawn kill – increased 3,184 for a percentage increase of 25.4%
Buck fawn – increased 773 for a percentage increase of 6.3%
In an expanding herd the percentage of the take of each category will determine how many are being recruited.
We are doing a pretty good job of “phase one” of QDM by knocking the does down AND passing the buttons up.
Gee… isn’t that what selective deer hunters do?
We are killing MORE bucks now than under the two buck system.
How can that be? Because we are recruiting more bucks into adulthood from button bucks. Adult bucks have to start out as babies.
Percentages are the great equalizer when discussing deer harvest, not numbers. Look at the percentage of button bucks in the harvest. THAT is the true measure of what is being carried over – not shear numbers.
Buttons used to make up 14% and 15% of the harvest and now only make up 10% of the harvest.
Pure hunter selectivity on does and button bucks that started BEFORE the OBR.
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Post by Woody Williams on Sept 8, 2006 17:09:36 GMT -5
Who cares about record book entries? Record book entries are completely meaningless for basing management decisions on. If the buck harvest were to explode upon going back to a two buck limit, as some people apparently believe will happen, then that would be a legitimate reason to go back to a one buck limit. That will not happen nor will a drop in record book entries unless the IDHA simply scores fewer deer in an attempt to prove their point. We're still waiting for the OBR supporters to explain why the single largest increase in record book entries happened the first year not the second or third year as should have happened if the OBR were responsible. Think about what you wrote a little bit, how is it the single biggest increase in record book entries happened in 2002, the very first year under the OBR? Now unless you seriously believe those bucks suddenly aged two years and grew record book racks upon the announcement of the rule change, then they must have been around prior to the OBR. Here are the absolute facts of the situation for you: 1. More bucks have been killed during the 4 years under the OBR than any other recorded four year period. 2. The single biggest jump in record book entries happened in 2002 the first year under the OBR. Very few bucks make the record books before they are 3.5 and almost none make it before 2.5. Now, how can anyone look at the data and seriously believe that the OBR did anything other than transfer the buck harvest from early archery season to firearms season. Yes, record books are not the best indicators of the age status of the deer in a herd. An increase or decrease in the numbers of entries only means one thing for sure - more or less hunters entered their bucks. That is it. Nothing else is proven by record books. A look at the buck numbers ... In 2001 we killed 12,016 bucks in early archery and the gun hunters took 36,082. Using those 2001 numbers as a base.. In 2002 the early archery buck numbers dropped 4,619 and the gun buck numbers increased 3,478 In 2003 the early archery buck numbers dropped 2,932 and the gun buck numbers increased 4,121 In 2004 the early archery buck numbers dropped 4,031 and the gun buck numbers increased 10,406 In 2005 the early archery buck numbers dropped 3,171 and the gun buck numbers increased 7,311. Total for the OBR period so far are: Early archery is a MINUS 14,753 bucks Gun season is a PLUS 25,316 bucks You have to understand that the early archery buck figures was trending up steadily (1 to 2 thousand a year more) every year until 2002. So those minus figures are really more than that. Where is the “bucks savings”? BTW - I've asked for the number of HRBP entries for the year 2005 and they are not very well forthcoming. Maybe one of you pro-OBR guys can shake that number loose. .
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Post by greghopper on Sept 8, 2006 17:39:13 GMT -5
Here You go!!!!!
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Post by racktracker on Sept 8, 2006 18:36:35 GMT -5
Greg, I've got to ask. Which side are you on? You keep posting materials that re-enforces the anti-OBR side. Would you like to explain what you copied and pasted - other than it re-enforcing what a number of people have been saying about the number of bucks being killed is higher than before the OBR. As someone else said - gun buck kill is up bigtime and bow killed bucks is down big time. Your copy and paste job shows that. Thanks, we appreciate all the help that we can get.
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Post by greghopper on Sept 8, 2006 19:14:16 GMT -5
Greg, I've got to ask. Which side are you on? You keep posting materials that re-enforces the anti-OBR side. Would you like to explain what you copied and pasted - other than it re-enforcing what a number of people have been saying about the number of bucks being killed is higher than before the OBR. As someone else said - gun buck kill is up bigtime and bow killed bucks is down big time. Your copy and paste job shows that. Thanks, we appreciate all the help that we can get. What About the Increase in Hunters....The material you say re-enforces the anti-OBR is just that "YOU SAY"....remember the Anti-OBR people say there is NO DATA !!!!!
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Post by kevin1 on Sept 8, 2006 19:25:11 GMT -5
The deer have been out there the whole time , all you had to do was go out there and find them instead of punking your DNR into doing your bidding . They exist to serve you , cherish that . Anyone who believes otherwise is a shooter , not a hunter . This was true yesterday , and it will be true tomorrow . Walk away from the parking lot and start noticing the tracks for the first time . If you follow them long enough you'll eventually see a deer , that's how real hunters fill freezers , learn from it . I'm a meat hunter and I understand this , and I routinely see deer that any of you would drool over . They don't interest me because the meat would be tough . Step away from the truck and just hunt and quit whining .
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Post by greghopper on Sept 8, 2006 19:36:12 GMT -5
The deer have been out there the whole time , all you had to do was go out there and find them instead of punking your DNR into doing your bidding . They exist to serve you , cherish that . Anyone who believes otherwise is a shooter , not a hunter . This was true yesterday , and it will be true tomorrow . Walk away from the parking lot and start noticing the tracks for the first time . If you follow them long enough you'll eventually see a deer , that's how real hunters fill freezers , learn from it . I'm a meat hunter and I understand this , and I routinely see deer that any of you would drool over . They don't interest me because the meat would be tough . Step away from the truck and just hunt and quit whining . YEA....RIGHT...LAMO!!!!!
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Post by racktracker on Sept 8, 2006 19:39:34 GMT -5
Greg, I've got to ask. Which side are you on? You keep posting materials that re-enforces the anti-OBR side. Would you like to explain what you copied and pasted - other than it re-enforcing what a number of people have been saying about the number of bucks being killed is higher than before the OBR. As someone else said - gun buck kill is up bigtime and bow killed bucks is down big time. Your copy and paste job shows that. Thanks, we appreciate all the help that we can get. What About the Increase in Hunters....The material you say re-enforces the anti-OBR is just that "YOU SAY"....remember the Anti-OBR people say there is NO DATA !!!!! What about WHAT increase in hunters? Are you saying that Indiana has increased in the number of hunters the last 4 years? jcervid on here can correct you on that one. We are actually losing hunters. As far as NO DATA. They are referring to NO DATA that would substantiate unequivocally that the OBR is making a difference. Put it in simpler terms - there is no proof thAt OBR is working. There is reams of data from the DNR to post and you did just that. All that proves is that more deer, including bucks, are being killed almost every year regardless of the OBR. IF the OBR was really working the numbers should be less for bucks, not more.
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Post by lugnutz on Sept 8, 2006 20:18:34 GMT -5
Everyone says the jumps in record book entries was already occurring. So what if we go back to a 2 buck limit and it drops back to where it was before the OBR? That will HAPPEN....But it will take about 5 years for The effect of the OBR...To work its self OUT!!!!If and when we go back to 2 Bucks ,The First few YEARS you will see Big INCREASES in Record book entries...People will Be Killing 2 BIG BUCKS.... What going to come of the OBR? Whats going to work out? What is anyone GAINING from the OBR? Someone please thats pro-OBR explain to me what is getting GAINED from the OBR! Lug
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Post by indianahick on Sept 8, 2006 22:14:24 GMT -5
Greghopper- That is not a compilation of record book deer. That is the total of deer killed in Indaina for those years. All deer. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of the record book groups. If you want to enter or try to enter a deer into p&y or b&c you have to contact them and then let them measure your animal, the state does not do it for you.
Now I really do not remember all of the reasons that some wanted the obr but one of them that I do remember was that it could mean that non resident hunters might come to Indiana. You know outfitter types.
I was not able to attend any of the meetings so I voted against the obr online.
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Post by greghopper on Sept 9, 2006 8:10:29 GMT -5
Greghopper- That is not a compilation of record book deer. That is the total of deer killed in Indaina for those years. All deer. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of the record book groups. If you want to enter or try to enter a deer into p&y or b&c you have to contact them and then let them measure your animal, the state does not do it for you. Now I really do not remember all of the reasons that some wanted the obr but one of them that I do remember was that it could mean that non resident hunters might come to Indiana. You know outfitter types. I was not able to attend any of the meetings so I voted against the obr online. REALLY.... Dang!!!!
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Post by greghopper on Sept 9, 2006 9:45:29 GMT -5
conclusions:1) There has been an average increase of 18% in annual doe harvest. 2)There has been a 10% increase in annual Buck harvest. 3)There has been a 2% increase in the percentage of does in the harvest and a corresponding 2% decrease in the percentage of Bucks that make up the harvest.This means more bucks are being protected under OBR. This data would indicate that OBR is helping to increase the number of does harvested and increase the percentage of does in the harvest. this has been accomplished while actually showing an increase in the buck harvest. Looking at these numbers I'm hard pressed to see why anyone would want to go back to the baseline years.
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Post by racktracker on Sept 9, 2006 11:54:17 GMT -5
LOL…
Just using the “baseline” numbers that you posted:
We are killing 6,859 MORE bucks per year than we did under a two-buck system. Since Jim Mitchell has always said that about 6,000 hunters double dipped, where is the buck savings?
The percentages of buck versus does is deceiving in that in 2004 and again in 2005 the antlerless permits were INCREASED big time.
This year you can kill 359 does and ONE buck. Tell me the rhyme or reason for that?
Button buck recruitment and taking of more does is the key to this, not letting 6,000 hunters kill a second buck.
What IS very telling is the 9% drop in archery bucks. What a sacrifice archers are making.
Greg,
You need to stop copying and pasting other’s thoughts and think on your own for a change.
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Post by greghopper on Sept 9, 2006 12:10:42 GMT -5
LOL…You need to stop copying and pasting other’s thoughts and think on your own for a change. You do the SAME....whats up with the personal attacks....the truth hard to swallow? ?
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Post by racktracker on Sept 9, 2006 12:25:25 GMT -5
Not personal attacks at all.
The stuff that you are putting on here is just recycled posts from elsewhere with very little, if any, back up from you. .
I probably shouldn't post anything as everything you have posted proves the anti-OBR side in that we are killing more bucks now and the OBR has not changed anything except to give the two-season bowhunter a smack upside the head.
We two-season bowhunters are paying DEARLY just so someone, somewhere, and someow MIGHT get a chance at a slightly bigger buck than before.
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Post by solohunter on Sept 9, 2006 13:09:00 GMT -5
Just came in for lunch, been out shooting my bow/swimming(a tad chilly)..man it is nice outside... Solo
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Post by Woody Williams on Sept 9, 2006 13:46:55 GMT -5
Just came in for lunch, been out shooting my bow/swimming(a tad chilly)..man it is nice outside... Solo
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Post by cambygsp on Sept 9, 2006 15:25:30 GMT -5
I jusy came in too....but I've been outside working. Putting the fishing stuff away and getting the hunting stuff organized.
I've only got two weeks till season starts!
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