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Post by jjas on May 8, 2023 6:38:24 GMT -5
My SS card says not to be used for identification purposes. With all the identity theft, and the trouble that a person can have if their SS number is out in public, AND the issues that have happened lately with firearm owners information being published in papers, there is no way that I would use my SS number for ID on a 4473. Heck, many places that ask me for one get one, but it sure isn't mine. Unless and/or until putting your SS number on a 4473 form is required, that's certainly your choice not to do so. But realistically, that number isn't nearly as secure as you may think. Check out the following article... www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna12359845From the article... There are certain times when Social Security numbers must be used. This is not a complete list, but here are some of the major situations when they are required:
Most financial transactions Employment records Tax returns (federal and state) Medicare benefits Contact with the Social Security Administration Applications for a hunting, fishing or other recreational license. Some states have their own requirements for providing Social Security numbers. For instance, in Washington you must list your Social Security number the first time you apply for a driver’s license. Federal law (The Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004) prohibits states from displaying your Social Security number on your license or vehicle registration forms, but they can still collect this information.
Because the Social Security number has become a personal identifier, you will need to use it for many other transactions -- basically anything that involves a credit check or background check. A potential landlord or prospective employer will probably request it. And anyone lending you money or extending credit will need it.
“We really are in a terrible situation today with the abuse and overuse of Social Security numbers,” says Beth Givens, director of the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse. “Just try getting a credit card or insurance without providing your Social Security number,” Givens says. “You’ll also need it to get a professional license and to apply for college.”
You may even be asked to provide your Social Security number when starting utility or cable service. Before you give it out, ask if you can provide some other form of identification, such as your driver’s license number. They may be willing to accept it if you prepay the first month’s bill, which is the law in California. For people who live in other states, you may need to talk to a supervisor to make this happen. A driver’s license number is much less useful to an identity thief than a Social Security Number.
As you can see from the article, your SS number is required quite often in life and people tend to hand it over when required. And if that becomes true for a 4473, then people will either hand it over, or not buy a gun at a gun store.
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Post by treetop on May 8, 2023 6:40:27 GMT -5
I stand corrected...but online and private sales do not require checks. I don't know the answer - anybody else? . Move to Canada. No, I'm not being sarcastic. If you don't like the laws here, work politically to change them, or seek another venue. You can still own a gun in Canada just not hand guns they have issues also not near as bad or as many I’m not sure what they have to do to get a gun but every sporting type store I’ve been in has them for sale. They also don’t have near the big city’s and people we do here in the US.
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Post by esshup on May 8, 2023 11:24:14 GMT -5
My SS card says not to be used for identification purposes. With all the identity theft, and the trouble that a person can have if their SS number is out in public, AND the issues that have happened lately with firearm owners information being published in papers, there is no way that I would use my SS number for ID on a 4473. Heck, many places that ask me for one get one, but it sure isn't mine. Unless and/or until putting your SS number on a 4473 form is required, that's certainly your choice not to do so. But realistically, that number isn't nearly as secure as you may think. Check out the following article... www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna12359845From the article... There are certain times when Social Security numbers must be used. This is not a complete list, but here are some of the major situations when they are required:
Most financial transactions Employment records Tax returns (federal and state) Medicare benefits Contact with the Social Security Administration Applications for a hunting, fishing or other recreational license. Some states have their own requirements for providing Social Security numbers. For instance, in Washington you must list your Social Security number the first time you apply for a driver’s license. Federal law (The Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004) prohibits states from displaying your Social Security number on your license or vehicle registration forms, but they can still collect this information.
Because the Social Security number has become a personal identifier, you will need to use it for many other transactions -- basically anything that involves a credit check or background check. A potential landlord or prospective employer will probably request it. And anyone lending you money or extending credit will need it.
“We really are in a terrible situation today with the abuse and overuse of Social Security numbers,” says Beth Givens, director of the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse. “Just try getting a credit card or insurance without providing your Social Security number,” Givens says. “You’ll also need it to get a professional license and to apply for college.”
You may even be asked to provide your Social Security number when starting utility or cable service. Before you give it out, ask if you can provide some other form of identification, such as your driver’s license number. They may be willing to accept it if you prepay the first month’s bill, which is the law in California. For people who live in other states, you may need to talk to a supervisor to make this happen. A driver’s license number is much less useful to an identity thief than a Social Security Number.
As you can see from the article, your SS number is required quite often in life and people tend to hand it over when required. And if that becomes true for a 4473, then people will either hand it over, or not buy a gun at a gun store. It's not required on a 4473 now. It's not on my drivers license, and that is used for the utilities. Not on the lifetime license either. The number is as secure as you make it. Give it out like water, then there are more chances for it to end up where it shouldn't. Do the criminals give theirs out when they buy guns? I think not.......
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Post by jjas on May 8, 2023 11:39:34 GMT -5
esshup quote
First of all, I never said it was required on a 4473 now. And while it's not on your driver's license, I guarantee you the DMV has it.
It may not be on your lifetime hunting license but it's required by the DNR to get a hunting license now.
Finally, it's easy to say that the criminals don't pull out their licenses when purchasing a firearm (and I'm sure most don't). But for people who perhaps have committed a crime and lied about it on their 4473, if your driver's license was necessary to get that gun in the state of Indiana and that information came to light, I wonder how many people that have committed crimes would at least be denied @ point of sale?
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Post by Woody Williams on May 8, 2023 12:59:32 GMT -5
Criminals don’t want guns that are traceable to them. Therefore they buy them on the back alley black market where most, if not all are stolen.
I doubt that checking all private sales will ever be accomplished. Now the government can say all sales has to have background checks but again - only law abiding citizens will do it. Billy Badboy isn’t going to do a background check when he sells a stolen gun to Johnny Gangbanger.
The crazy mass shootings are getting all the publicity. Yes, something needs to be done about them. The recent shooter was discharged from the Army for “mental health concerns”. This is not the first time this has happened. How are these people slipping through the cracks?
Meanwhile in the big cities people are killing each other right and left.
Gun laws won’t work just like murder being against the law isn’t working.
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Post by treetop on May 8, 2023 13:49:33 GMT -5
Not to long ago here in Fort Wayne we had a guy hold up in a apartment complex went through like 300 400 rounds never killed anyone honestly I don’t think he wanted to kill anyone I personally believe it was Suicide by cop but who knows
Anyway a couple of the neighbors had called the police many times on him and we’re complaining he was not right and the cops could not do anything because they didn’t believe he was a threat or that he had guns it was along those lines someway I’m not blaming the cops IDK but when you have multiple people telling you he’s crazy something should have been done or at least looked into I don’t want give up my rights guns at all either but this seems to be a common thread to many of these shootings
But who decides what crazy? IDK but you got people that look like freaks of nature and it was all self inflicted are they crazy yes if you ask me Just a while back woody posted a link about people cutting off a body part are they crazy yes very crazy if you ask me Jonny didn’t get a ribbon just to name a few
Our government seems to embrace it but anything to buy a vote is there motto that’s for sure crap they make it a holiday on top of it
I don’t have any idea how to change it even if you got into government you’d probably get out voted anyway unless you could find a way to give money to that group they would be all over that
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Post by stevein on May 9, 2023 9:32:43 GMT -5
First off I see some very good comments. A very civil discussion. In my own life I know people that hunt but are in favor of more gun control. I know people that are just in favor of more gun control. I know just about every level of pro 2A too. Not everyone has to agree about how stop these shootings but I still welcome other opinions and everyone has the right to vote in secert. What I do not know is ANYONE that understands why someone would go to any venue to kill people. I cannot even imagine any acquaintances that would either. What kind of sick, twisted mind does it take to commit such an act? Enact all the laws you want they will not prevent mass murders. Increase the penaltys still will not stop them. Put the death penalty and it will not stop them. Murder is against the law in all 50 states, even California. Unless there is a revision to the 10 commandants murder is also against God's law. Maybe I did not get the memo on that. Woody mentioned Abortion legalization as being a factor. I think LBJ's Great society to be another factor but for some reason they are more likely to be gangbangers and the Mass Murders are vengeance or Drug disputes. But the "GREAT SOCITY" did contribute to the breaking up of the family.
I do not the answer to the problem. Will I see it stop in my lifetime? I have ZERO confidance in the 2 partys getting together and solving anything except for their raises and benefits.
There is a question on the 4473 about I think it says "LESS THAN HORNABLE DISCHARGE" I think “mental health concerns” would be less than horonable. How would he be permitted to do security work? Unless it did involve a gun.
The Indy Amazon shooter's Mother tried to get his guns removed through our Red Flag Law. How did that work out for them? Had the law been used it MAY have prevented that one.
The Guy that shot all the people in the Texas Church had convictions that would have prevented him from legally buying or posessing firearms but they never got entered in the data base.
I think many of the mass murders have with guns bought through stores. The Columbine muderers got their guns through a Straw buyer as did the guy that shot up the Christmas party. I really have not heard of either of them doing time.
I know it is hated by a lot of 2A guys but maybe the Red Flag with modifications could help prevent some of the shootings.
So far the only prevention that has worked is the good guy with a gun, a civilian here in Indiana and an off duty police officer in the latest in Texas. After the shooting in Texas Church a GGWG stopped the muderer with his AR.
Good Day everyone Pray a real solution to this horrible problem emerges.
Steve
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Post by chewbacca on May 9, 2023 12:50:55 GMT -5
This has been a solid and civil discussion so far. I've really enjoyed reading my way through this thread. Definitely many good points. I think something that is pretty obvious and most everyone can agree on is that more laws do not equal less crime. We all know criminals could care less about laws. We all know the biggest issue in this country, and the entire world, is the mental health crisis. However, mental health is a slippery slope. The problem with limiting gun ownership for those with a mental health issue is where do you draw the line? Is a person seeking counseling from a psychiatrist grounds for losing their right for gun ownership? Or are the millions of people who are on daily antidepressants candidates for losing their gun ownership rights? I would say no to both of those but I'm just providing examples of people who could be candidates for such "mental health restrictions". Or, how about this...Let's say my wife gets diagnosed with severe mental health issues but I have no known mental health problems, will I lose my gun ownership rights because of her condition because we live in the same household? And if seeking mental health advice/treatments could cause you to lose your ownership rights you will have millions of people failing to seek the appropriate help they need. It's a very complex topic with no known answers. I know many believe that all guns should be confiscated but we already know what that will lead to...criminals still finding their way to get guns (and no good guys with guns to keep them in check), other instruments will be used in place of the gun, and there is absolutely no way to account for even close to complete confiscation of guns because many of us patriots aren't giving them up without a big fight. So many want to say we have a gun problem but we all know we have a HEART PROBLEM! So many people need God in their lives and they don't even know it or won't admit it.
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Post by genesis273 on May 9, 2023 13:52:18 GMT -5
Well stated👏👏👏
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