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Post by subzero350 on Jan 13, 2023 15:39:01 GMT -5
For more details on the ATF's pistol brace rule that was signed today, check out the Politics forum.
Like some others here, I built an AR pistol for hunting deer here in Indiana (in my specific case: to make it easier for me to hunt from enclosed blinds where the longer barrel of a rifle makes it more difficult to manipulate the weapon in a confined space). My build does not include a brace as I built it to be as lightweight as possible, so this brace rule does not apply to me; but it may apply to some others here.
Indiana deer hunting laws prohibit the use of SBR's (Short Barrelled Rifles) for deer hunting. I would imagine this means if you currently have a braced pistol that meets the Indiana definition of a legal handgun for deer hunting, you will need to remove the brace from it in order to stay in compliance with federal law. Registering your braced pistol with the ATF turns it into a SBR which will make it illegal for hunting deer in Indiana.
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Post by greghopper on Jan 13, 2023 16:36:55 GMT -5
I say this will probably effect 100 or less for Deer Hunting in Indiana.
Good thing there is plenty of other options for Deer Hunting.
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Post by Ahawkeye on Jan 13, 2023 20:31:43 GMT -5
This rule does not affect (effect?) me but what difference doesel a brace make in what is posted in the OP? Is it inside of IC 35-47-1-6? Seems a bit of an over reach to say someone can't use a brace to shoot more accurately??? Just asking not being argumentative.
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Post by M4Madness on Jan 13, 2023 20:57:38 GMT -5
I say this will probably effect 100 or less for Deer Hunting in Indiana. I killed a doe a couple of years ago with a .300 Blackout AR-15 pistol with brace. I no longer have the pistol. They are way more popular than you would guess.  |
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Post by greghopper on Jan 13, 2023 21:29:21 GMT -5
Are they popular to have or popular to use for Deer Hunting?
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Post by M4Madness on Jan 13, 2023 22:00:17 GMT -5
Are they popular to have or popular to use for Deer Hunting? It kind of goes hand in hand -- the more prevalent they are, the more likely they'll be found in the woods. What's attractive about them is their compactness, which is quite handy in a blind or treestand. My guess is that the most-common AR-15 pistol in the deer woods would be the .300 AAC Blackout, due to the fact that it was designed from the ground up for short barrels. Now, I'm not saying that there are tens of thousands of them in the Indiana woods, but certainly more than a hundred. One per county would be almost a hundred, and I know of a handful in my small circle here in my county alone that are fielded for deer. |
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Post by subzero350 on Jan 14, 2023 0:09:15 GMT -5
This rule does not affect (effect?) me but what difference doesel a brace make in what is posted in the OP? Is it inside of IC 35-47-1-6? Seems a bit of an over reach to say someone can't use a brace to shoot more accurately??? Just asking not being argumentative. My earlier statement about this new rule not affecting me may have been made prematurely. The problem is the ATF has been very vague in its wording. If you read the press release on the ATF's website, it says pistols with stabilizing braces that are designed to be used as a brace are still going to be legal under this new rule, and having them mounted on the pistol will not require it to be registered as a SBR. But some people on one of the gun forums I'm on found "text" that says the ATF rescinded all of the brace letters they issued (legalizing certain braces) with the signing of this rule and that text also suggests that even bare buffer tubes can still allow the pistol to be considered a "short barrelled rifle" by the ATF if they deem it so. So if a bare buffer tube makes my AR pistol into a SBR, then it will be illegal to use to hunt deer with in Indiana. Here we are again in a situation where for several years something has been considered "legal" and people even have signed letters from the ATF stating such. But now there's a new rule that apparently rescinds all of that. One thing everyone seems to agree on is this new rule was very poorly written and it will probably not survive a legal test / court challenge. But we all know what happens until that ruling comes down. I feel bad for people in less-free states like Illinois who aren't allowed to possess SBR's but they were allowed to possess braced pistols. The signing of this rule forces those people to either move out of the state or dispose of the weapons. |
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Post by greghopper on Jan 14, 2023 7:40:42 GMT -5
Isn't there a fourth option -- to swap out the barrel with one that is at least 16 inches and dispose of the old barrel? It seems to me that would work. It avoids registration and allows the owner to keep it legally.
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Post by M4Madness on Jan 14, 2023 15:05:39 GMT -5
Isn't there a fourth option -- to swap out the barrel with one that is at least 16 inches and dispose of the old barrel? It seems to me that would work. It avoids registration and allows the owner to keep it legally. If you're going to put a 16" or greater length barrel on it, then you may as well put a stock on it too, as any length benefits gained by a braced pistol would be lost. By the way, I read that the number of pistol braces sold in the U.S. is around 40 million. |
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Post by jjas on Jan 14, 2023 15:11:54 GMT -5
While I'm sure this likely isn't the popular opinion on the forum, IMO bump stocks, braces and binary triggers were specifically invented to get around existing gun laws concerning ownership of full auto rifles and short barreled rifles.
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Post by M4Madness on Jan 14, 2023 15:17:11 GMT -5
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Post by ispfowler on Jan 14, 2023 15:49:04 GMT -5
While I'm sure this likely isn't the popular opinion on the forum, IMO bump stocks, braces and binary triggers were specifically invented to get around existing gun laws concerning ownership of full auto rifles and short barreled rifles. Sounds like you're in favor of more gun laws... |
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Post by Woody Williams on Jan 14, 2023 16:29:55 GMT -5
While I'm sure this likely isn't the popular opinion on the forum, IMO bump stocks, braces and binary triggers were specifically invented to get around existing gun laws concerning ownership of full auto rifles and short barreled rifles. I’m of the opinion that citizens should be allowed to possess full auto weapons. The founders wanted the citizens to have equal weapons as the military. THAT is what the 2nd Amendment is all about, not personal protection. The basic banning of “ machine guns” goes back to the Al Capone days when the government was at war with the mafia gangsters. It was knee jerk just like the present push to ban the so called “assault weapons”. |
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Post by jjas on Jan 14, 2023 18:28:56 GMT -5
I simply brought up the fact that the companies making the products I referenced were/are IMO trying to skirt existing laws that determine if certain firearms are to be allowed (or not). IMO they had to know that the federal government was going to come after them for doing so at some point.
As far as banning any particular type of firearm, re-read my post. I've said nothing about that whatsoever.
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Post by lawrencecountyhunter on Jan 14, 2023 19:47:56 GMT -5
Agree or not, I at least see some rationale in additional regulation of full auto firearms. I never have heard any logic behind the demonization of SBRs.
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Post by hornzilla on Jan 16, 2023 9:06:31 GMT -5
While I'm sure this likely isn't the popular opinion on the forum, IMO bump stocks, braces and binary triggers were specifically invented to get around existing gun laws concerning ownership of full auto rifles and short barreled rifles. I’m of the opinion that citizens should be allowed to possess full auto weapons. The founders wanted the citizens to have equal weapons as the military. THAT is what the 2nd Amendment is all about, not personal protection. The basic banning of “ machine guns” goes back to the Al Capone days when the government was at war with the mafia gangsters. It was knee jerk just like the present push to ban the so called “assault weapons”. Absolutely Woody. It was a knee jerk reaction. Same as this is. If we give a inch anywhere. They will take a mile. |
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Post by greghopper on Jan 16, 2023 9:20:17 GMT -5
Can you imagine the world we live in today and Full Auto being legal….
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Post by esshup on Jan 16, 2023 13:50:34 GMT -5
Can you imagine the world we live in today and Full Auto being legal…. They'd be fun to plink with providing you could afford the ammo. |
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Post by stevein on Jan 16, 2023 14:46:44 GMT -5
Full autos are legal now. You just need the stamp and all the govt BS that goes into getting it.
I thought the brace and short barrel did make it a SBR. Did anyone actually use it as a brace? I do not see how this got around the NFA definition of a SBR. This is why the ATF should NOT be making up rules. They made this mess. Also the use of a SBR for hunting should be addressed by our state legislature or the DNR.
I would guess the short barreled shotguns will be next.
My point is all my life rifles had 16"+ barrels and a certain OAL. Pistols had less than a 16" barrel and no stocks. Shotguns had an 18" barrel and a certain OAL. What changed? Not the NFA. These definitions need to be changed by Congress or go through the federal courts all the way to the Supreme Court. Better yet kill the NFA.
I am pro 2A.
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Post by esshup on Jan 16, 2023 15:53:57 GMT -5
From my understanding, having a brace on an AR/AK with a barrel length less than 16" with a Length of Pull (LOP) of less than 13.5" makes it a pistol. If you shoulder that braced pistol to fire it, it then instantly becomes a SBR.
If you have an AR/AK with a brace on it, the brace makes the LOP longer than 13.5" AND the barrel is shorter than 16" then it's a SBR.
If I had one I wouldn't be doing a dang thing differently until all the court cases are settled, and then I *might* change it to comply but I sure as heck wouldn't be putting myself on any more lists than I am on now. (I DO have a NFA Trust.)
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