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Post by OLE ROD on Aug 5, 2005 19:24:32 GMT -5
Has anyone tried this powder if so I would like to hear some feed back.I was thinking about trying it.
I've read in some books that you can shoot 5000 times without cleaning.
Sounds to good to be true to me.
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 5, 2005 20:05:42 GMT -5
Jim Shockey - The numero uno muzzleoader hunter in the world uses it. Of course I'm sure he gets paid to use it too..  I'm very happy with 777.. |
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Post by weedhopper on Aug 5, 2005 20:41:07 GMT -5
APP is junk. Extremely hydroscopic, inconsistant, and has a lousy shelf life.
I think Doc White would dispute that statement.... ;D
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 6, 2005 8:10:55 GMT -5
APP is junk. Extremely hydroscopic, inconsistant, and has a lousy shelf life. I think Doc White would dispute that statement.... ;D Maybe Jim is the most publicized?? |
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Post by weedhopper on Aug 6, 2005 10:14:33 GMT -5
I think you're right Woody... ;D
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Post by hornharvester on Aug 6, 2005 20:07:34 GMT -5
I just did some testing with APP. Using 2F and 3F in a .50 with MMP sabots/ .429 270gnr SPear Gold Dots and Winchester 209 primers. I found the 2F to be very inconsistent, varying 400 fps or more and the groups looked more like a pattern. The 3F varied only 60 fps and shoot acceptable groups of 2" @ 100 YDs. With 90grns of 3F it chronographed at around 1570 fps. Both cans were new, unopened. I shot over 30 shots out of each can and never had to swab the gun. It cleans up very easy and no nasty black like with black or pyro. I emailed APP and asked them why the 2F would be that inconsistent but never received a reply. H.H.
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Post by jh45gun on Aug 29, 2005 3:57:13 GMT -5
It also has a crappy shelf life it will not last a year with out going bad.  I have some of the stuff that they made before they called it American Pioneer and it is no good. ( Clean shot) Now I see that Goex has a new power called Pinicle that is made in partnership with American Pioneer. I am not sure if I want to try this or not if I do I will shoot up most of it and leave only a little to see if their claims of indefinite shelf life are true. I sure am not happy that I have almost a full can of useless powder in the Cleanshot. It may still go bang but it gets very erratic from what the local gun shop employee says that shoots all the powders and uses American Pionleer so if you do use this power plan on shooting up the can before the year is up. Which then brings me to the question if the powder is no good after a year how old is it when you buy it at the store it may be going to heck then. Just a warning and not knocking the powder if it works for you just stating that it does have a limited shelf life. I have some 777 that is still good after being open for two years. Just about empty though will have to buy some more before the muzzle loader season opens. Still I may try the Pinnicle to to see how it works. If I do buy some I will post my results. |
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Post by mbogo on Aug 29, 2005 6:52:28 GMT -5
I have to laugh at the antics of all of the powder companies, they spend half of their time bashing the use of smokeless powder in muzzleloaders and the other half trying to produce a powder exactly like smokeless but called a different name.
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Post by jh45gun on Aug 29, 2005 14:30:29 GMT -5
I have to laugh at the antics of all of the powder companies, they spend half of their time bashing the use of smokeless powder in muzzleloaders and the other half trying to produce a powder exactly like smokeless but called a different name. What bashing?? Telling some one that shooting smokeless in a muzzle loader because it is not safe is not bashing?? Yea they are coming up with different powers but NONE have been any thing like smokeless they all smoke to some extent and they all are corrosive or hydroscopic and attract moisture so non come close to smokeless. |
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Post by mbogo on Aug 31, 2005 7:04:09 GMT -5
The Hodgdon company takes every opportunity to discredit the use of smokeless powder in muzzleloaders, which is somewhat understandable given their share of the muzzleloading market. It becomes less understandable when they try to duplicate smokeless powder but call it something different. It is not the job of the blackpowder/bp substitute makers to tell people what to use in a muzzleloader, it is the job of each individual muzzleloader manufacturer to tell people what is safe in their muzzleloaders. Shooting smokeless powder in a muzzleloader specifically designed for it is perfectly safe. Many of the so called bp substitutes are chemically as advanced as smokeless powder although they produce smoke and are hygroscopic.
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Post by weedhopper on Aug 31, 2005 17:44:44 GMT -5
Although I totally agree with you,,,you really shouldn't laugh too loud. The Savage is an awesome firearm. I may actually purchase one soon. But for the folks who don't wish to go the smokeless route for various reasons shouldn't be scoffed at for trying to make things easier by trying one of the new powders. There's a HUGE push going on right now by traditionalists all over the country, trying to re-establish their so-called "traditional season", and alot of them are using the Savage as an example as to why this needs to be addressed. Do I agree with them?? Not really. Would I like to see a traditional season here in Indiana? Sure,,,why not? Am I gonna whine and cry if it DOESN'T happen? Nope. Just food for thought. |
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Post by gundude on Aug 31, 2005 18:23:52 GMT -5
Although I totally agree with you,,,you really shouldn't laugh too loud. The Savage is an awesome firearm. I may actually purchase one soon. But for the folks who don't wish to go the smokeless route for various reasons shouldn't be scoffed at for trying to make things easier by trying one of the new powders. There's a HUGE push going on right now by traditionalists all over the country, trying to re-establish their so-called "traditional season", and alot of them are using the Savage as an example as to why this needs to be addressed. Do I agree with them?? Not really. Would I like to see a traditional season here in Indiana? Sure,,,why not? Am I gonna whine and cry if it DOESN'T happen? Nope. Just food for thought. DITTO! I got the inlines and they are great but I like the old nastyhardtocleanpaininthebutt TRADITIONAL blackpowder, patch n ball. My kids shoot inlines with pyrodex and I fool around with a few others with the subsitutes.......... AS far as I am concerned, whatever floats your boat... For some strange reason I like to make hunting hard on myself. I went to ground hunting for the most part and now I want to take a good buck with a flintlock. (Weedhopper is gonna get me one for X-mass!) ;D ;D |
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Post by weedhopper on Aug 31, 2005 18:50:35 GMT -5
And you're gonna get ma a good .223 aren't ya...  ;D |
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Post by mbogo on Aug 31, 2005 19:13:47 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I'm not laughing at those that choose to use any of the cleaner black powder substitutes, I would be doing the same thing had I not made the switch to smokeless. The powder manufacturers, mostly Hodgdon, are a different story.
I think a primitive muzzleloader season is a good idea if it is in addition to the current muzzleloader season. Anything that gives me a good excuse to put another weapon in my safe is all right by me. That, however, would raise the question of how primitive is primitive. Would side hammer percussion rifles qualify? Even flintlocks? Or would it have to be only wheellocks and matchlocks?
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Post by weedhopper on Aug 31, 2005 19:52:57 GMT -5
They don't even know what they want. ;D They keep arguing amongst themselves, they might end up with "nada". I knew what you were saying mbogo, but with some of these guys posting 300 yard kills with rifles such as the Savage and Ultimate, it's just going to make their case stand a little firmer in getting these guns outlawed. That's my biggest concern. |
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 31, 2005 19:56:49 GMT -5
They don't even know what they want. ;D They keep arguing amongst themselves, they might end up with "nada". I knew what you were saying mbogo, but with some of these guys posting 300 yard kills with rifles such as the Savage and Ultimate, it's just going to make their case stand a little firmer in getting these guns outlawed. That's my biggest concern. During the last IDNR Administrative Rules Process they tried to do just that. They couldn't get enough hunter support to do it. A good number of us would like to see more stuff legalized instead of "banning". Somehow that word "BAN" doesn't sit too well with me. Once banned, it is usually gone for good. |
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Post by weedhopper on Aug 31, 2005 20:16:49 GMT -5
You're absolutely right Woody. Once they take something away, you'll never get it back. The antis work that way. I enjoy my muzzleloaders, from flintlocks, caplocks, and inlines. There's enough room in this sport for everybody... What you choose to hunt with as long as it's legal, is of no concern to me. |
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Post by gundude on Aug 31, 2005 21:49:55 GMT -5
same here and the only thing I will add is that MOST hunters have no idea what 300 yards is!
When I had my gun shop and started selling range finders I had guys stand on my porch and guess how far the barn was across the road. AVG guess was around 250 yards........... It was 147!.....
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Post by jh45gun on Sept 3, 2005 1:51:57 GMT -5
They don't even know what they want. ;D They keep arguing amongst themselves, they might end up with "nada". I knew what you were saying mbogo, but with some of these guys posting 300 yard kills with rifles such as the Savage and Ultimate, it's just going to make their case stand a little firmer in getting these guns outlawed. That's my biggest concern. That is my concern too and it is a valid one. I like inlines and traditional guns but when you start using smokeless powder and primers and jacketed bullets and shooting up to 200 hundred yards or more I have seen some claims over 400 with a scope mounted bolt action you basically have a centerfire that some one forgot the brass but every thing else is equal. Considering that you are duplicating cartridges like the 45/70, 45/90 and some of the big sharps cartridges which of course are illegal to use during a muzzle loader season the use of such guns really gives those against them a valid arguement. At least if the powder is kept primitive you can argue it is not a modern gun. Take away that you in effect have a modern caseless weapon which they are trying to perfect for centerfire rounds. |
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Post by mbogo on Sept 3, 2005 7:26:11 GMT -5
The problem is that the powder is not being kept primitive. None of the black powder substitutes are any more primitive than smokeless powder.
Shooting 300 yards with a muzzleloader is an impressive feat, but it is important to remember a couple of points about this. First, very few hunters could make an honest 300 yard shot with a rifle let alone a muzzleloader. Second, although the velocity figures for the Savage and other smokeless guns sound impressive, they are not significantly above that of a max load in an Omega and are actually below the maximum velocity of the Ultimate muzzleloader (w/ 250 grs. of pyrodex). The sabot is the limiting factor and it is more of a factor with smokeless than it is with bp or substitutes.
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I have some of the stuff that they made before they called it American Pioneer and it is no good. ( Clean shot) Now I see that Goex has a new power called Pinicle that is made in partnership with American Pioneer. I am not sure if I want to try this or not if I do I will shoot up most of it and leave only a little to see if their claims of indefinite shelf life are true. I sure am not happy that I have almost a full can of useless powder in the Cleanshot. It may still go bang but it gets very erratic from what the local gun shop employee says that shoots all the powders and uses American Pionleer so if you do use this power plan on shooting up the can before the year is up. Which then brings me to the question if the powder is no good after a year how old is it when you buy it at the store it may be going to heck then. Just a warning and not knocking the powder if it works for you just stating that it does have a limited shelf life. I have some 777 that is still good after being open for two years. Just about empty though will have to buy some more before the muzzle loader season opens. Still I may try the Pinnicle to to see how it works. If I do buy some I will post my results. 
;D