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Post by jh45gun on Sept 3, 2005 20:50:39 GMT -5
True if they make it so it is like smokeless but so far it mimics black powder so therefore it can be considered primitive. Hey I am not against any guns but why open the door to the folks that make the rules that may be. I agree about the 300 yard shots due to the bullet design most folks should not shoot over 150 with a 100 and under more realistic.
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Post by mbogo on Sept 4, 2005 9:35:52 GMT -5
Black powder substitutes mimic both black powder and smokeless powder and are in no way primitive. If they only mimiced blackpowder they would be completely pointless. It is not the people that make the rules that are the problem it is hunters that want more restrictions so they face less competition that are the problem. These are the same hunters that fight crossbows tooth and nail.
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Post by jh45gun on Sept 4, 2005 10:02:05 GMT -5
Black powder substitutes mimic both black powder and smokeless powder and are in no way primitive. If they only mimiced blackpowder they would be completely pointless. It is not the people that make the rules that are the problem it is hunters that want more restrictions so they face less competition that are the problem. These are the same hunters that fight crossbows tooth and nail. Boy do we agree on that last couple of sentences. From what I can see of the substitutes you may be right partly as 777 is more effective by 15 % than black but the others from what I can see mimic black except for the smell and the cleaning situation and even then since they attract water not much difference you have to clean right a way anyway. I have always found the Pyrodex to me was dirtier than black so there was no bargain there except that it could be shipped easier than black which is the biggest advantage to all these powders over black. Given the Shelf life situation I think they got a ways to go yet.
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Post by mbogo on Sept 5, 2005 9:09:11 GMT -5
Lol about the pyrodex, that pyrodex crud in my old Knight is exactly the reason I decided to switch to a Savage. Even if I would have to quit using smokeless it would still be easier to clean than the Knight, but I don't think that likely to happen any time soon.
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Post by Doug/Va on Oct 1, 2005 7:51:32 GMT -5
Guys, let me step in here for a minute. As we all know there has been a "oneupmanship" ever since Knight brought out the MK-85. It has been that way since and still continues, in the guns, and bullets and yes the powders. Look at all the sub powders which have risen only to fall in a year or so. Pyrodex is the only one which has survived the test of time, and I think 777 will also, but at what cost. I have heard of several older/weaker guns being blown to bit using this hot powder. I personally think this should go one way or the other. Either make it legal for "anything goes" in a muzzleloader of get rid of all the sub powders and inlines in the special season-one way or the other. We now have the Savage Model 10-II which is made to shoot smokeless-so what. What is the big deal anyway. Smokeless powder is or was a sub powder in it's younger days for black powder. True it has more power than black but you use less and by doing so can be "picky" to get good accuracy. I guess the main question boils down to this. Can the deer really tell if the gun was loaded with "the real stuff", or a sub including smokeless. After all no matter which powder is used it has to be loaded in the same slow process from the muzzle. I own Flintlocks, Caplocks and two inlines which I use real black powder in. Nothing comes close to the reliability of real black powder but it does produce more fouling than the sub powders do, but how many shots are you going to shoot at a deer in a day's hunt anyway? I also have a Savage 10-II and have never shot anything in it but smokeless. True it is as clean as a "modern" gun after they both were fired. But it is still a muzzleloader. And with certain powders (LIL'gun is one) you can really get the velocity up there. When we start putting some sort of limit on what you can use someone is going to get upset. Any gun is only as good as the shooter standing behind it. It don't matter if the muzzle velocity is 1,500 fps or 2,900 fps with a 175 grain bullet in the Savage. If you can't hit water if the gun fell out of a boat all you are doing is making noise. ;D
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