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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 6:17:19 GMT -5
I find a muzzle velocity of 2650 ft/sec with a 180 grain bullet plenty adequate for my deer hunting purposes. (The Hoosier is certainly no slouch, especially when you consider that it pushes a 180 grain bullet to the same or slightly greater muzzle velocity as the same weight bullet fired from many factory .308 and .358 Winchester rounds.) I am a bit puzzled. If these wildcat rounds push a 180 grain bullet faster than either a .308 or .358 then why not allow the use of these factory loads? Something doesn't add up as to why it has to be a .35 Caliber minimum sized bullet (.357"). Sounds stupid as to why you can't use other calibers like a .30-30 or .243 or even a .270. 1. Velocity of a .358 Hoosier = 2,600 FPS/180 gr. bullet. 2. Velocity of the .358 WSSM = 2,800 FPS/180 gr. bullet. 3. Velocity of a .30-30 = 2,400 FPS/150 gr. bullet. 4. Velocity of a .270 = 2,900 FPS/130 gr. Bullet. 5. Velocity of a .243 = 2,900 FPS/100 gr. Bullet. 6. Velocity of a .308 = 2,600 FPS/180 gr. bullet. What does "Cartridge Length" have to do with anything.
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Post by steve46511 on Nov 27, 2012 7:10:23 GMT -5
Just speculating, but I don't THINK the powers that be expected the hoard of wildcats that has came about OR their effectiveness when the regs were written??
GodBless Steve
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Post by swilk on Nov 27, 2012 8:08:38 GMT -5
I think they did ... they specifically mentioned wildcats in the publications. I think they knew that only a few guys out of every hundred would be using a wildcat .....
I think we talked about the wildcat possibilities on this very site prior to the rule being passed. If we knew they would be coming I would hope the DNR knew as well.
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Post by hankhunter on Nov 27, 2012 8:33:51 GMT -5
I find a muzzle velocity of 2650 ft/sec with a 180 grain bullet plenty adequate for my deer hunting purposes. (The Hoosier is certainly no slouch, especially when you consider that it pushes a 180 grain bullet to the same or slightly greater muzzle velocity as the same weight bullet fired from many factory .308 and .358 Winchester rounds.) I am a bit puzzled. If these wildcat rounds push a 180 grain bullet faster than either a .308 or .358 then why not allow the use of these factory loads? Something doesn't add up as to why it has to be a .35 Caliber minimum sized bullet (.357"). Sounds stupid as to why you can't use other calibers like a .30-30 or .243 or even a .270. 1. Velocity of a .358 Hoosier = 2,600 FPS/180 gr. bullet. 2. Velocity of the .358 WSSM = 2,800 FPS/180 gr. bullet. 3. Velocity of a .30-30 = 2,400 FPS/150 gr. bullet. 4. Velocity of a .270 = 2,900 FPS/130 gr. Bullet. 5. Velocity of a .243 = 2,900 FPS/100 gr. Bullet. 6. Velocity of a .308 = 2,600 FPS/180 gr. bullet. What does "Cartridge Length" have to do with anything. The size, weight, or speed of the bullet is not the problem. The 30-30, 243, 270, and 308 are all legal for deer. They just cannot be shot from a rifle. They are legal in a pistol.
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Post by joen on Nov 27, 2012 9:16:11 GMT -5
hey rifleman my loads are around 52000 have not tried higher pressure loads but i am going to try some 200 grain pills later this week or next.
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Post by hornharvester on Nov 27, 2012 19:26:21 GMT -5
Rman,
I put together 3 Sav 16 using Brians barrels and did a lot of testing. At the time the 180 Barnes wasnt available so I used the Speer FP. It did a great job of hammering two big Ind. whitetails two days apart. One shot was 40 and the other 150. Neither one went over 15 yards.
If you want to shoot distance you need to pick the bullet first. A 10 twist barrel will shoot the Noslers 225 better than the 12 twist. The 12 twist shoots Sierras because its shorter. Now unless your in match competition I doubt any of this makes much difference.
Since Barnes are generally a littler faster than jacketed bullets I imagine 2900 would be very easy to do. h.h.
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Post by esshup on Nov 28, 2012 0:44:40 GMT -5
Dwight, want to buy that Stainless Tupperware ML-II Savage that RB worked on back? ;D That's the one that is wearing the .45 cal barrel and shooting flatter than the .358.
I do have the program, and I'll try to remember to run some numbers for ya. Got a busy week ahead of me; have to finish the siding on the house, (2nd story only and only 2 sides left) run some bullets out to 1K and do brakes on the car before leaving next Tuesday for a Colorado Elk hunt. Did you see my PM on the other board?
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Post by Rifleman on Nov 28, 2012 5:13:20 GMT -5
Joe Name- Let me know how that 200 gr testing works out. Makes me wonder what some of that new Hornady Superperformance powder would do for you. I know reviews on it are somewhat mixed.
HH- I know your right about picking the bullet first. If I was looking at distance as the main criteria, I would be looking at one of the heavier bullets with a high BC. I am kinda thinkin though that overall I want to stay with a lighter bullet and control recoil somewhat. Of course we all know this is a trade off game, so right now I am just weighing pros and cons. Good info on barrel twist, I was thinking a 180 might shoot a little better with a 1-12.
ESSHUP- I have not checked my PM's yet. I have been busy last 2 days working 12's. I will check it soon though. I think I will pass on the Tupperware 45- I think my frontstuffer days are on hold for awhile. I hope you do well on the Elk hunt, interested to see how that laser rifle of yours performs. I do appreciate you runnin some numbers for me, no rush though, I am still in the investigation phase of this project.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 5:43:18 GMT -5
Just speculating, but I don't THINK the powers that be expected the hoard of wildcats that has came about OR their effectiveness when the regs were written?? GodBless Steve I don't think the Powers-that-be know anything about firearms or cartridges. Why are they allowed to make all these dumb rules regarding caliber size and cartridge length, when these wildcats duplicate or surpass average factory cartridges now available.
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Post by Rifleman on Nov 28, 2012 6:24:29 GMT -5
Hey Hunter Doug, I appreciate your consternation regarding the current regs, I agree that it is a frustrating situation. I would much rather the regs allow all centerfires, but they do not, hence my exploration of the 35 wildcats that are legal and available. However my purpose in starting this thread was to look at the technical aspects of the situation, not the political. Perhaps I might suggest if you wish to discuss those other aspects you start a new thread addressing such and allow this conversation to stay on track. Thank you, Rman
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Post by oldhoyt on Nov 28, 2012 7:38:22 GMT -5
I don't have a chronometer, but using info provided by AJ Brown, my 358 Hoosier load using 45 gr of Accurate 2230 and Hornady 180 gr SSP bullet should be around 2400-2500 fps in my 22" barrel. This particular bullet was made for velocities up to about 2300 fps, from what I've read, so I don't want to push it too fast. So far so good on terminal performance.
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Post by joen on Nov 28, 2012 9:28:13 GMT -5
hey old hoyt your right. the 358 hornady performed well on that doe i did a texas heart shot on. but i started at 3000 fps and when it hit her it was traveling around 1777 fps i recoverd the bullet and it had a great mushroom and wieghed 118 grn.
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Post by hornharvester on Nov 28, 2012 10:20:09 GMT -5
I shot a yote @ 25 yards using 180 Horn SP @ 2600+fps and it blew out the whole side of the yote. I decided then to not use them for deer hunting. A close up shot might end up with me losing a deer especially if it was a big buck. h.h.
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Post by oldhoyt on Nov 28, 2012 11:03:05 GMT -5
hey old hoyt your right. the 358 hornady performed well on that doe i did a texas heart shot on. but i started at 3000 fps and when it hit her it was traveling around 1777 fps i recoverd the bullet and it had a great mushroom and wieghed 118 grn. I really only plan to shoot out to 150 - 175 at the very most. I may try some loads with 200 gr RN bullets next year.
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Post by Rifleman on Nov 28, 2012 12:16:54 GMT -5
I heard that about the 180 gr Hornady, that is was made for lower speeds. I know the Barnes are expensive, but one should be able to run it about as fast as they want within practical limits and not worry about anything, if the accuracy is there of course. I am really looking forward to what ESSHUP is able to come up with on his Quickload program. I know of course that one will have to test it, but at least it should tell me if what I plan to do is even possible. I appreciate OldHoyt sharing his data. I have used alot of AA2230 in the .223 over the years it is a great powder. But I think if I am going to be able to drive the 180 Barnes to 2650 from a 20inch tube the load is going to have to be optimized, perhaps the new propellant SUPERPERFORMANCE will get me there, perhaps one of the Short Cut powders, or maybe something like VV N130. I dunno it's all speculation on my part right now.
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Post by steve46511 on Nov 28, 2012 13:36:05 GMT -5
With only one single use at this time, it's not a huge addition of info on the bullets but the Speer bullets have performed as well as, if not better than, expected to date. Jim, my buddy, has been using the 220 grain and I shot the one with the 180 grain. The 180 gr traveled 33 inches (measured) through the buck, front to back, opened to .525 accross. Non max loads of 2500 +-. with the 220 grain 2700 +/- with the 180 grain None of Jim's three retained the 220 grain bullets. All blew through and beyond. All "recovery" distances were DRT up to the longest of about 40 yards or so. I too look at the higher BC bullets and have several. For the record, there wasnt a real noticable difference in trajectory out to 250 yards loaded comparitively. Speaking of the Hornady brand. I also have the 200 grain Spire point loaded. Hope to test one of them out soon too. Luck to all. Great thread. GodBless Steve Attachments:
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Post by cedarthicket on Nov 28, 2012 13:36:57 GMT -5
For more info on velocities with AA2230 and 180 grain Hornady bullets please refer to Reply #39 (and subsequent comments) in thread: www.huntingindiana.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=guns&action=display&thread=40729&page=2#I really like the short stick powders like Rel 7, Rel 10X, and H322. However, AA2230 is also an excellent powder in the .358 Hoosier. If you prefer ball powders, especially those made/sold by Accurate Arms, you should try to get your hands on a pound of AA2200. It is just a tad “faster burning” than AA2230 and may be just what you are looking for with a 180 grain bullet in a Hoosier rifle sporting a 20-inch long barrel.
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Post by Rifleman on Nov 28, 2012 16:30:54 GMT -5
Cedarthicket- That is a great thread. I had read it before but read it again a little closer this time. The info you give on case capacity and load data was very helpful. I also like what Steve is doing with his shortened 350 Mag, good idea and one I would follow if I was not planning on going with a custom barrel and having the receiver blueprinted anyway. Your post also brought up a question in my mind on burn rates, so I consulted this chart: www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.htmlI was surprised to discover that AA2200 and Superformance were not listed. Also I was surprised to discover just how fast Norma 200 is. Wow just 2 steps over 5744, which is a fairly hot double based powder we used alot in the Savage 10mlII back in the day. So that begs the question, just how fast a powder would one be prudent to use in the 358 Hoosier? Norma 200 is not all that slower then H110 and Lil Gun. I would think H110 and Lil Gun to be way too fast for this application.
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Post by cedarthicket on Nov 28, 2012 18:22:38 GMT -5
Today we are living in a Golden Age of Reloading. A tremendous number of different powders, bullets, and cartridges are available from many manufacturers. It seems that about every reloading niche is covered, although when you study the powder burn rate charts, and have lots of real world experience, you begin to realize that it is true that such charts depict only a rough, relative burn rate at best. And some burn charts are accompanied with a caution against interpreting the chart literally for all applications. Some powders can change their relative rank considerably depending upon such factors as bore diameter, case capacity, and bullet weight.
Also, you should absolutely NOT interpret a smooth or uniform change in burn rate from one powder to the next powder on the list. For example, the Hodgdon chart shows AA1680 being only 1 place faster than Norma 200, which is 1 place faster than Reloader 7. In my experience Norma 200 and Reloader 7 are pretty close as far as burn rate in the .358 Hoosier with 180 grain bullets. Furthermore, there is no way in Hades that I would test or list any loads with AA1680. Same thing (only more so) for H110 and Lil Gun. I believe there is just too great a chance that some newbie hot rodder would get into deep trouble and damage his rifle, himself, or a fellow shooter.
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Post by Rifleman on Nov 28, 2012 20:40:53 GMT -5
Absolutely in agreement with you their CT. I have been reloading for 35 years now and all though I have tried to get away from it in the last several years ( over 150K rounds of reloading) as I quite frankly am tired of pullin the handle. However seeing as how a wildcat really has my interest, it is going to be necessary to fire up the presses once again. Since this is a wildcat and the load development is still ( at least IMO) in it's early stages, I am proceeding with this phase of gathering and considering information from as many sources as possible. I do not intend to proceed with the project until I have a clear concept in my mind as to exactly what I want my rifle and load to be, what level they will perform, and a how I can have a reasonable level of measure of success in reaching my end goal. This discussion we are having is quite helpful in this process.
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