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Post by Rifleman on Nov 24, 2012 7:39:47 GMT -5
I was thinking very strongly of getting a rifle in one of the 35 cal wildcats for hunting deer here in Indiana. I have a few criteria I would like to meet and could use some advice. First off I would like to build it on a Rem Model 7. I really like the Rem Model 7 and if I could find a donor rifle with a laminated stock that would be ideal. I found 2 on Gbroker, both are in short action RUM calibers. So I guess that brings up the question, would the bolt face for a Rem SA RUM work with one of the 35 wildcats based on the WSSM's?
I am considering going with the 35 WSSM in 1.8 if possible. I am thinking the Barnes 180 gr could be pushed to 2700+ no problem in that case. Is that possible with the 35 BFG in 1.8, I think they are essentially one and the same.
Another big consideration if of course the 358 Hoosier. I really like the idea that the parent case head is a 308, so any Rem Model 7 in 243 or 308 could be the donor rifle. I was wondering though how many FPS one gives up going with this case. Again I would prefer to use the Barnes 180 gr.
Barrel length- I would assume one could get a full burn with any of these short cartridges in 18 inches, but that is just an assumption on my part, any real world observations?
Ammo cost is a factor somewhat to me. All though at one time I had a big reloading setup and have reloaded over 100K rounds in my lifetime, pulling the handle on a machine got pretty boring to me. I would rather just buy 300-500 rds loaded and call it a day.
Anyway any advice or comments would be appreciated. Thank you.
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Post by HuntMeister on Nov 24, 2012 8:49:05 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2012 8:59:42 GMT -5
The .358 Hoosier would be your best bet as far as keeping the costs down to a min.
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Post by fullrut on Nov 24, 2012 10:08:51 GMT -5
I have a 358wssm and love it, HOWEVER, if I were to buy one right now it would be the 358Hoosier. When I got into this game the Hoosier wasn't available and thats why I went with the WSSM. The hoosier is easier to load and a very devstating round. If you pick it you will be very happy with its performance.
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Post by schoolmaster on Nov 24, 2012 11:37:15 GMT -5
I am shooting the .358 BFG, 1.625 length. This rifle has a 24 inch McGowen sporter barrel and shoots the 200 gr. Barnes TTSX at 2640 f/s. I think you should contact some of the gunsmiths that are building these rifles and get the info. Just Hunt gunshop in Wabash builds their version of these rifles and they also sell custom ammo for them. Also Mark Penrod at Penrod Precision in N. Manchester has built rifles on the Rem model 7. You need to contact these fellows and pick someone who can supply ammo for these guns. Otherwise it is a time consuming process to form brass and a definite reloading proposition. I believe that a friend of mine shooting the .358 BFG 1.625 was getting 2800 f/s using a 180 gr. Speer flat nose and Rl-7 powder. The 1.8 will better these velocities by 100-200 f/s or so. These velocities were in 22-24 inch barrels, so don't know how fast in an 18 inch.
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Post by swilk on Nov 24, 2012 18:21:31 GMT -5
I have a couple 1.625" BFG's and can easily push a 180gr bullet past 2800. I can push a 200gr to 2800 from a 24" barrel and just a touch under from my 22" barrel.
Those are accuracy emphasized hunting loads.
If I were to buy today I would go with the 1.8" wssm/bfg.
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Post by Rifleman on Nov 24, 2012 18:53:02 GMT -5
Thanks guys, great info. I did speak with Brian of BFG designs today and he broke it down to me pretty clear. If I wanted to hit high speed, go with the 358 BFG 1.8 and hang a 24 in barrel on it. If I wanted to stick with a 20 inch barrel, might as well save the $$ on brass and go with the Hoosier.
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Post by schoolmaster on Nov 25, 2012 8:11:12 GMT -5
Rifleman, you have nailed it.Ya Know that model 7 Remmy with a 20 inch barrel would be a sweet hunting rifle in either caliber.
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Post by Rifleman on Nov 25, 2012 9:22:34 GMT -5
Thanks School master I was hoping you would chime in here. I am a little concerned though about a 20 in Rem MDL 7 in 1.8 WSSM. I would think that would be one hard kickin flame throwin machine with a max load of powder and a 180 gr.
I understand why guys use the heavier bullets in the 35, as they are looking for that higher BC for long range shootin. However I have a sneaky idea that a flat shooting load with a 180 would be just the ticket for 300 yds and under. I have no doubts the Barnes bullet would hold together regardless of the speed. Brian of BFG told me yesterday that he thought a guy could get to 3100 with a 180gr Barnes in the 1.8 with a 24 inch tube.
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Post by steve46511 on Nov 25, 2012 13:20:54 GMT -5
FWIW......I think if you run some ballistics on the .358 bullet of choice in varying fps you'll find, as I have, there is little real gain in trajectory to 300yards comparatively, depending strictly on what one considers USABLE gain.
Some think this gain is worth it, others may not, but the difference between a 200 barnes at 2700 fps vs the same bullet at 3000 fps (both zeroed at 150) is:
3000
300 -11.0
2700
300 -14.2
or.....roughly an inch less drop at 300 per 100fps at the muzzle.
That's one MOA of difference between the two at 300 yards and that number seems to be pretty constant regardless of the bullet chosen to run through the paces.
Since ALL have more than ample energy at these distances we shoot deer the only consideration at that point is if the added recoil is worth the added trajectory for their uses.
Intended only as food for thought. Just another way to look at results other than just fps at the muzzle.
To some, that 3 inches makes cost and recoil worth it. To others, it may not be.
I wont muddy the waters with my opinion. What each chooses will be supported whole heartedly. Probably depends a lot on how OFTEN one feels they will take 300 yard shots?
2 cents
GodBless
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Post by schoolmaster on Nov 25, 2012 17:00:30 GMT -5
I killed a 135# field dressed doe at 275 yards opening morning. That's why I had the rifle built. The 180 grain .358 bullets at 2800 f/s will absolutely be lethal at 300 yards even on game bigger and tougher game than deer. I read up on the .358 Hoosier and it will get the job done out to 300 as well. You just have to know your load and rifle. Rifleman has the skills to get the most out of this custom. For me it is not how often I need to take a 300 but knowing I can is worth the cost to me.
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Post by Rifleman on Nov 25, 2012 19:13:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words School Master. Well I guess I am in a quandry, either I build a WSSM with a 24 in tube, make it a HBAR sendero type long range screamer or just go with something more like a stock 700 or model 7 nice all round hunting rifle in the Hoosier. Perhaps both, LOL
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Post by joen on Nov 25, 2012 19:57:36 GMT -5
I have a 358 dnr and it shoots over 3000 fps at low presure with 180 pill and 58 grns of 3031 killed a big doe last night at 347 yards texas heart shot. built it on a savage model 11 270 wssm donor rifle.
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Post by cedarthicket on Nov 25, 2012 20:25:19 GMT -5
There are several good .358 wildcats out there to use for hunting deer -- as well as other big game. My favorite (of course, I am quite prejudiced) is the .358 Hoosier. So far this deer season I have used it to take one coyote and two nice-sized does. The rifle is the same one I used earlier this year to take a bull elk in Colorado. And the load used is the same -- 180 grain Barnes TTSX FB -- at about 2650 ft/sec from a 22-inch barrel. Details are here: www.huntingindiana.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=guns&action=display&thread=43946The coyote was about 65 yards off, angling slightly away. The bullet entered the chest just behind the left front leg and exited the right shoulder. The exit wound was a good 2 inches in diameter. He dropped dead right there. The first doe was taken at about 130 yards. The broadside shot through the rib cage broke ribs going in and coming out. The exit wound in the rib cage was roughly between 1.5 and 2 inches in diameter. The heart looked like it had been turned inside out. Typical with an expanding bullet through the heart and lungs, the deer bled profusely and ran roughly 35 yards. The second doe was about 65 yards away. The broadside shot was a little farther back and just a little higher than the one on the first doe. Entrance and exit wounds were very similar to those of the first deer, but the heart was not struck. Also, bleeding was not as profuse as the first doe, but the deer only ran about 30 yards. With my limited experience I am a big fan of the 180 grain Barnes TTSX FB bullet. I expected pass through shots on deer and that is what happened. However, there is no doubt that the bullets both expand and penetrate very well. They will provide quick, humane kills as long as the hunter does his part in shot placement. |
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Post by esshup on Nov 25, 2012 23:38:18 GMT -5
I keep trying to talk myself into getting one, but with the .45 cal Savage ML shooting the 195g Barnes so well I can't.
2" high at 100 yds
dead on at 200 yds
7.5" low at 300 yds
If the weather cooperates tomorrow I'll run some over the chronograph. 67g of H-4198 is the powder charge.
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Post by Rifleman on Nov 26, 2012 5:31:28 GMT -5
cedarthicket- Your only getting 2650 FPS from a 22 inch barrel with the 180 Barnes? Whats your load?
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Post by cedarthicket on Nov 26, 2012 10:25:39 GMT -5
I find a muzzle velocity of 2650 ft/sec with a 180 grain bullet plenty adequate for my deer hunting purposes. (The Hoosier is certainly no slouch, especially when you consider that it pushes a 180 grain bullet to the same or slightly greater muzzle velocity as the same weight bullet fired from many factory .308 and .358 Winchester rounds.) Please refer to the following OP and replies for more information on the load used: www.huntingindiana.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=guns&action=display&thread=43946 |
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Post by Rifleman on Nov 26, 2012 19:41:23 GMT -5
Absolutely 2650 is adequate, I have read I think most of the stuff you posted on this cartridge and thought initially you were using AA2230 for some reason. I see you swapped over to the Norma 200. I just thought that with a 22in barrel and the Barnes 180 would make 2700 plus. So now that has me thinkin, I wonder if I can hit 2650 from a 20in barrel.
Hey Joe: I figured you had a new screamer in 35 goin on by now. Pretty nice ballistics your getting there. You got a brake on that cannon?
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Post by hornharvester on Nov 27, 2012 5:08:30 GMT -5
Reloader 7 and 180 grain bullet will make 2800 in a 22" barrel in a 35 BFG 1.625. h.h.
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Post by Rifleman on Nov 27, 2012 5:34:07 GMT -5
Thanks HH, thats good to know and goes along with what Brian F. told me the other day.
Now I am wondering, I know this 35 BFG has been around awhile and guys have figured it out pretty good. But is that the case with the Hoosier? Surely guys have tried alot of powder/bullet combos. But looking at the burn rates, I would think one could optimize for a given bullet like the Barnes 180 and hit a little more speed.
Hey Esshup, have you got quick load? If so can you run some numbers and see which powder is most likely to turn 2600+ with the Barnes 180 from a 20 inch barrel in the 358 Hoosier? Using a Rem 700 action I would say pressures under 58K should be good, but what do you guys think?
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