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Post by M4Madness on Jan 12, 2008 10:16:54 GMT -5
First, let's examine Indiana Code 35-47-1-6, which is Indiana's definition of a handgun:
IC 35-47-1-6 "Handgun" Sec. 6. "Handgun" means any firearm: (1) designed or adapted so as to be aimed and fired from one (1) hand, regardless of barrel length; or (2) any firearm with: (A) a barrel less than sixteen (16) inches in length; or (B) an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches. As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.
Now let's examine the DNR's requirements for hunting deer with a handgun:
Handguns, other than muzzleloading, must have a barrel at least four inches long and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diameter or larger. The handgun cartridge case, without the bullet, must be at least 1.16 inches long.
The state of Indiana allows citizens to own short-barreled rifles (SBR's) after gaining prior approval from the BATF and paying a one-time $200 NFA tax to the federal government. An SBR is considered to be any rifle with a shoulder stock attached that has a barrel length below the legal minimum length of 16".
Let's look at this example. Someone owns a high-powered rifle and goes through the red tape with the BATF to make it an SBR. Once they have proper approval, they can then legally cut their 20" barrel down to 15". According to Indiana Code, this rifle is now considered a handgun, even though it has a shoulder stock.
It certainly appears that someone could take a Remington 700 bolt-action rifle in .243 or larger, register it as an SBR, then cut the barrel down to 15" and LEGALLY deer hunt with it.
Any opinions?
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Post by trapperdave on Jan 12, 2008 10:30:39 GMT -5
wrong. #1 clearly states a handgun is designed or adapted to be fired with ONE hand. the shoulder stock means its a rifle, regardless of barrel length. SBR...short barrel RIFLE.
IF shorteneing the barrel is all it took to make it a handgun, you wouldnt need special permit to own it.
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Post by M4Madness on Jan 12, 2008 10:41:35 GMT -5
wrong. #1 clearly states a handgun is designed or adapted to be fired with ONE hand. Note the "Or" in #1, which signifies it can be either #1 OR #2. Indiana considers any firearm with a barrel less than 16" to be a handgun. Indiana also considers any firearm with an overall length less than 26" to be a handgun. Another example is Michigan. Any firearm with an overall length less than 26" is classified as a handgun. People up there buying folding-stock AK-47 rifles must approach the purchase as though it is a handgun, even though it has a stock on it.
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Post by gillgrabber on Jan 12, 2008 12:30:01 GMT -5
No matter what Indiana does or doesn't allow, I think you'd have a VERY difficult time getting ATF to issue a permit allowing you to cut a rifle barrel down to 15 inches.
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Post by orangeville on Jan 12, 2008 12:41:04 GMT -5
M4M The "OR" makes it seem that way to me too
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Post by orangeville on Jan 12, 2008 12:44:35 GMT -5
No matter what Indiana does or doesn't allow, I think you'd have a VERY difficult time getting ATF to issue a permit allowing you to cut a rifle barrel down to 15 inches. Lots of people get barrels cut for SBR's. $200 tax stamp. ADCO firearms in Ohio cuts lots of barrels.
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Post by danf on Jan 12, 2008 12:57:38 GMT -5
A 15" barrel will still most likely yield a length longer than 26". Most length of pulls are around 14", you'd need to have a stock with a length of pull around 9 or 10" in order to stay under the 26" mark by the time you figured in the reciever and frame. That's simply WAY too small, even for a youth (I think most youth stocks are around 12" L-O-P).
By the time you shortened a barrel (or used an existing barrel length like for a Contender) so as to have a comfortable stock pull and stay under the 26" mark, as well as went through the red tape and paid the tax it simply wouldn't be worth it. Sure, there may be some*ONE* who does this to be legal, but chances are they will spend the time with it and know what it's capable of.
A SBR will not give accuracy that will be worth a darn, for several reasons. First and foremost, velocity will be severely affected. With a SBR below the 26" mark (I'm guessing you'd need a barrel no longer than 10", maybe even 8") you won't have sufficient room for the powder to burn completely and put out a full load of pressure, especially with a larger caliber that typically uses a slower (relatively) burning powder. Not to mention the shorter barrel will not give the bullet enough time to be stabilized by the time it leaves the muzzle.
I'll go out on a limb here with my limited (but slowly growing) knowledge of ballistics and cartridges and say the more accurate SBR's will/would be those chambered for straight wall pistol cartridges. Those chamberings use faster powders and are designed for shorter barrels. At that point, you'd be better off time and money-wise to simply buy an existing PCR.
To finish my ramblings, what I'm trying to say is a SBR simply wouldn't be worth it. If you want something with a short barrel (and a HPR round) use a handgun that's already allowed. If you want the buttstock, get a PCR- it'd be a lot easier and less hassle. I personally don't see someone going through the hassle to obtain an SBR and stay as legal as possible. I think there's more poachers out there using a HPR to take deer than there ever will be legal SBR users....
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Post by orangeville on Jan 12, 2008 13:09:16 GMT -5
Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy especially at the range you would hunt deer at. A quality barreled SBR will shoot groups that will make your head spin .Calibers such as 6.8mm SPC are designed for shorter barrels. How many folks hunt with rifle caliber pistols like Thompson Contenders and REM XP-100?
Edited for Spelling and Grammar. I cant speel wirth a lick ;D
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Post by swilk on Jan 12, 2008 13:10:33 GMT -5
There is an "or" before the 26" length thing as well.
Seems any 1 of those three things would make it legal.
Hand held "OR" shorter than 16" barrel "OR" shorter than 26" overall length.
So yeah, it seems you could shorten a rifle barrel.
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Post by danf on Jan 12, 2008 13:45:55 GMT -5
Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy especially at the range you would hunt deer at. A quality barreled SBR will shoot groups that will make your head spin .Calibers such as 6.8mm SPC are designed for shorter barrels. How many folks hunt with rifle caliber pistols like Thompson Contenders and REM XP-100? That's true, but how many of those handguns have barrels under 14"? Not many, as most I've seen in typical rifle-chamberings are between 14-16". Anyone know for sure just how much red-tape is involved with getting the permit from the BATF-nazi's?
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Post by orangeville on Jan 12, 2008 13:57:47 GMT -5
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Post by steiny on Jan 12, 2008 14:03:37 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be a whole lot simpler to just buy a Stavage Striker or Magnum Research Lone Eagle in the centerfire chambering you prefer -vs- cutting down a nice rifle. You can get real good accuracy out of those weapons off a bench and sand bags. The problem lies in the fact that they are very difficult to hold steady in a field hunting scenario.
I've got a scoped 30-06 Lone Eagle that I can whack the 200 yard gong with all day long off the bench. During hunting season, it stays home because I can shoot more accurately, and further with my slug gun.
Don't be mistaken. There is no real yardage advantage.
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Post by orangeville on Jan 12, 2008 14:11:41 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be a whole lot simpler to just buy a Stavage Striker or Magnum Research Lone Eagle in the centerfire chambering you prefer -vs- cutting down a nice rifle. You can get real good accuracy out of those weapons off a bench and sand bags. The problem lies in the fact that they are very difficult to hold steady in a field hunting scenario. I've got a scoped 30-06 Lone Eagle that I can whack the 200 yard gong with all day long off the bench. During hunting season, it stays home because I can shoot more accurately, and further with my slug gun.Don't be mistaken. There is no real yardage advantage.
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Post by swilk on Jan 12, 2008 15:03:10 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be a whole lot simpler to just buy a Stavage Striker or Magnum Research Lone Eagle in the centerfire chambering you prefer -vs- cutting down a nice rifle. You can get real good accuracy out of those weapons off a bench and sand bags. The problem lies in the fact that they are very difficult to hold steady in a field hunting scenario. I've got a scoped 30-06 Lone Eagle that I can whack the 200 yard gong with all day long off the bench. During hunting season, it stays home because I can shoot more accurately, and further with my slug gun. Don't be mistaken. There is no real yardage advantage. That is the reason I got rid of my .35 Remington Contender. I cannot shoot a handgun well enough to trust it while hunting.
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Post by M4Madness on Jan 12, 2008 16:23:36 GMT -5
There is an "or" before the 26" length thing as well. Seems any 1 of those three things would make it legal. Hand held "OR" shorter than 16" barrel "OR" shorter than 26" overall length. That's exactly the way the law reads. Indiana classifies any ONE of the following to be a handgun: 1. Designed to be fired with one hand (no barrel length restriction). OR2. A rifle with a barrel less than 16". OR3. A rifle with an overall length less than 26". A firearm only needs to meet one of the above criteria to be classified as a handgun by the state of Indiana. Applying for a SBR is a rather simple process. They fall in the same category as machineguns and sound suppressors (silencers). All you need to do is fill out two Form 1's, get two passport photos taken, get fingerprinted by the local law enforcement on two FBI cards, and fill out one form certifying U.S. citizenship. Have the chief law enforcement officer in your jurisdiction (Sheriff or Chief of Police) sign your papers, and then you mail them in to the BATF with a one-time $200 tax. Once the BATF approves you, they'll send you one of your Form 1 copies back with a $200 stamp on it. You may then have your barrel cut down to whatever length you choose. If your CLEO won't sign, you can form a simple corporation or trust, which both exempt you from the fingerprint, photo, and CLEO signature requirements. There are many calibers that perform very well with 15" barrels. One need only look to the Thomson Center Encores and Contenders to see this. Add a buttstock to the mixture, and you gain much stability.
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Post by M4Madness on Jan 12, 2008 16:29:34 GMT -5
No matter what Indiana does or doesn't allow, I think you'd have a VERY difficult time getting ATF to issue a permit allowing you to cut a rifle barrel down to 15 inches. It's rather easy to do. If you can own a firearm, then you can own an SBR in Indiana. They CANNOT turn you down if you are a non-felon.
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Post by orangeville on Jan 12, 2008 20:38:48 GMT -5
I cant see any reason a hunter wouldnt want an accurate, lightweight more compact firearm like a SBR to hunt with. Might be a little expensive initially but thats it.
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Post by cambygsp on Jan 13, 2008 6:35:43 GMT -5
wrong. #1 clearly states a handgun is designed or adapted to be fired with ONE hand. Have you ever attempted to fire one of those high power Contenders with one hand?
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Post by trophyhunter1 on Jan 13, 2008 12:56:29 GMT -5
wrong. #1 clearly states a handgun is designed or adapted to be fired with ONE hand. Have you ever attempted to fire one of those high power Contenders with one hand? i know i have i got one..
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Post by hornharvester on Jan 13, 2008 14:38:49 GMT -5
Seems to me like a lot of hypothetical questions about nothing. We can "what if" any laws and regulations. h.h.
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