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Post by hornharvester on Nov 28, 2007 18:53:30 GMT -5
I've worked and hunted at Crane for 23 years. I started the petition that got the attention needed to stop NR from segregating mushroom hunters and bow hunters under Lynn Andrews effectively cutting the available hunting area in half. I'm friends with Steve Andrews - NR head - and others that run the show. I'm telling you the ATV rumor is just that - a rumor. There is no single incident involving either an employee or state hunter that has precipitated this hunt cancellation. I e-mailed CDR Prosuniak and asked him how employees can retrieve stands because Bob and I both have stands out and there must be others in the same boat. Five minutes later he put out the basewide e-mail telling everyone they can use the log in/log out system under scouting until 12 December to remove their stands. There are a number of factors in play, but the only one you guys need to know is there are security issues and command is reigning in everything that's not mission essential right now. When risk outweighs outcome decisions must be made. I doubt there will be any hunting at Crane for the remainder of this year. As for next year, no one knows. My opinion on ATVs is that some people need them to hunt and/or do any of a number of things we take for granted. Bob is my friend and I stand by him. It will take him all day to get his stands out - piece at a time - without help because no ATVs are going anywhere right now. I've offered to help him, not cut him down or call him lazy. He hunts as hard as anyone I know and has my full respect. People can walk in on your hunt and ruin it just as easily as riding in on an ATV. I chose to leave mine at home, but respect other people's rights - some day someone will take away something you need and then you will understand. Don't mean to sound preachy on my first post on this site, but apparently there are employees on here talking without first hand knowledge. Before you post, don't guess, don't propogate rumors, don't believe everything you hear, chill out and trust the people that serve our country in their career of choice. J.J., Its great you posted the true facts and not a bunch of rumors blaming other hunters for Cranes action. I think most guys can live with this decision of not hunting because of security reasons. It is too bad Crane wont send these hunters their money back though. h.h.
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Post by Ahawkeye on Nov 28, 2007 19:05:01 GMT -5
Not hunting for security reasons, fine by me. I would still love to see ATV'S made illegal unless a hunter has a permit like the ones used for cross bows in early archery. The restrictions on where they do get to take those ATV'S would be very restricted in my opinion. The reasons I stated before are proof enough. Bottom line, ATV'S hurt hunting in many different ways and I am flat tired of the stuff I see people do on them while hunting.
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sr71
Full Member
Posts: 52
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Post by sr71 on Nov 28, 2007 20:09:54 GMT -5
JJ, I want to know something. Did you PERSONALLY and DIRECTLY talk with Steve Andrews? I know I spoke with him late yesterday along with Mr. Nonte who is a security guard that works all of Crane's gun hunts as was told a WAY different story! This was NEVER about Bobby and you know it. You made it about Bobby with your first post. Do you honestly think Bobby is the only person with a ATV during these hunts? Bobby uses an ATV. Good for him. He needs it and that is fine, but the fact of the matter is, there are folks who are using them who are not handicapped and NOT following the rules. You been working and hunting at Crane for 20 some years. Big deal. My Brother I In-law have 38 years. Big deal. Rules were broken period. Bobby does need an ATV. He does have a bad back. Why isn't he going to be allowed to use his ATV to retrieve his stands? Another note, if it is security reasons, why is lake access still granted? You know as well as I do, that the the Captain invoked the Sykes Act(sp) and is not allowing retired folks hunt. He has been getting flooded with emails and phone calls left and right with some upset folks. Justifiably so IMO. Add that to the bogus email that went around last week about Steve Andrews conspiring with some others I won't name in doing away with the hunting and hiring "sharp shooters" to take car of the deer population. Then the latest events that just happen to push the Captain and XO who happen to not give a rats behind about hunting anyway.over the edge. No sir. Stories are not adding up.
Bobby, I apologize if you thought at anytime in this thread that you were the one being implicated. You are not. What "supposedly" happened had nothing to do with you as far as I know.
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Post by jeremiahjohnson on Nov 28, 2007 22:48:18 GMT -5
SR71 you seriously need to squelch these rumors. Yes I've spoken with Steve and three others in Natural Resources, personally spoken with AFGE, Safety, Cdr Posuniak, Cdr Shassberger, people in the room at the meetings last week and the one at 1700 Monday evening, Rusty Knoly in Safety, two fire department employees and the results of their brief...yadda, yadda, yadda. Bottom line is you're wrong.
Bobby did take offense at earlier posts that said no one should be allowed to use ATVs - go back and read it yourself. I was standing right there when he read it at his desk and was miffed at several insensitive posts.
It amazes me how many people know exactly what's going on and yet are dead wrong.
By the way, the original e-mail floating around last week was about 95% true. There are tensions between natural resources and command and there are tensions in building 1, but that's no one's business. Do you seriously think the CO would halt hunting, keep over $16K of the State and employees money for the two remaining hunts, and risk a PR nightmare over personality conflicts and unauthorized ATV use even if all that were true?
SR71, if you really want to know the truth, pm me and give me your extension and you can meet me and we'll talk about it. If you'd like to meet Cdr Posuniak (who hunts by the way) and/or Cdr Shassberger (who also hunts), I'd be glad to introduce you and you can get it straight from the source. Unfortunately, this has turned so ugly that all they'll say now is, "security posture". I'll introduce you to the right people in Safety - the ones responsible for rewriting the RAC - and they can tell you all about hazard analysis and risk assessment and all the work NR will be doing to work for our hunting privileges. All the hard thankless work they're doing just so we can go hunt. This octopus has many, many arms - the timing sucks - but there's nothing that can be done now but let Steve and the rest of NR, Safety, Security, Command and a host of others do their job for us.
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Post by jeremiahjohnson on Nov 28, 2007 22:54:43 GMT -5
By the way SR, have your read the Sykes Act? I've read it cover to cover and sat down with safety and discussed their take on it. Nothing in there period about retired employees. There's a great deal of language about having a plan for NR, partnering with state DNR, and providing outdoor activities such as hunting - says it in black in white in more than one place.
If you want to know why retired employees are no longer allowed to hunt then you need to talk to the CO - it was his decision and his alone.
The reason employees are no longer allowed to cut firewood it's because the firewood regs were pulled from NR and placed in MWR's hands. They haven't rewritten the regs or completed the HA or RA, ergo - no firewood cutting until it's done and approved.
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Post by jeremiahjohnson on Nov 28, 2007 23:01:00 GMT -5
Oops, missed one. Why isn't Bobby using his ATV to recover his stands? Because Steve told him it might not be a good idea. Thanks to all the rumor mongering, though ATV's for retrieving stands has not been officially outlawed, everyone is walking on egg shells trying not to irritate command or security. So, as he always does, Bobby's leaning conservative - one of his most redeeming qualities. A lesser person would do it anyway, force the issue, but not Bob.
There are a number of irritants involved in this whole mess, airing them in a public forum is not proper and not helpful. The bottom line is there are security issues and that can mean almost anything. You may see the 5K run cancelled and bicycles stopped before it's over. I sincerely hope not and do not believe it will, but you've got to admit, this time of year there's precious little activity on the lake or anywhere near lake Greenwood - not so of 1200 hunters over two Sundays and archers during post primary rut.
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Post by mrfixit on Nov 29, 2007 5:25:11 GMT -5
Not hunting for security reasons, fine by me. I would still love to see ATV'S made illegal unless a hunter has a permit like the ones used for cross bows in early archery. The restrictions on where they do get to take those ATV'S would be very restricted in my opinion. The reasons I stated before are proof enough. Bottom line, ATV'S hurt hunting in many different ways and I am flat tired of the stuff I see people do on them while hunting. There is a difference between opinion and proof. What proof do you have? Do you have pictures or home movies of people intentionally destroying state property? If so that's already illegal. As far as I'm aware it's illegal to have an ATV on any state or national park property. At the moment there is only one state owned and approved riding area located between Linton and Dugger IN and there is another scheduled to open in the southern part of the state near Sturgeon IN. Both are or will be located on ground that has been extensively mined and is pretty much worthless for anything else. But for me to just hop on my Polaris and take off through the Hoosier National Forest or another state property to just ride or to go hunting is already illegal and while there might be some clause in the law for handicapped hunters with a permit to use one I don't know but I'm not aware of any. The use of ATVs is very restricted as we speak. You can either ride on the state property available and approved for use with an ATV or on private property with permission. If you have a state sticker some counties allow the use of ATVs on the county roadways. To use an ATV anyplace else is illegal as we speak. At minimum a person could be charged with criminal trespass and criminal mischief but I'm sure there is several other more serious crimes a person could be charged with for the illegal use of an ATV not to mention you could be held financially responsible for any damage you do while riding somewhere illegally. So what exactly are you advocating? Outlawing the use of ATVs on private property?
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Post by dbd870 on Nov 29, 2007 5:39:49 GMT -5
I was considering the Crane option for myself and someone else for next year. Regardless of who's right and whose wrong this is a mess and I've definitely changed my mind. If Crane wants people hunt the property, this isn't the way to attract them.
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Post by drgreyhound on Nov 29, 2007 6:06:07 GMT -5
I heard about this yesterday as Mbogo was planning to go and was only notified yesterday about the cancellation by a Crane representative. This really stinks for us, because we turned down 2 free tickets to the Colts game on account of the Crane hunt. If we had known earlier the hunt was cancelled, we could have probably gotten the tickets. Furthermore, I think it's terrible that Crane isn't even attempting to refund the money of the people that applied. I agree with others on this thread saying that if Crane wants to attract hunters, this isn't the way to do it--and I hope the majority hunters tell Crane to jump in a lake the next time they solicit applications for a hunt!!! I realize that one hunter breaking the rules can ruin it for everyone, but at least Crane could refund people's money if this is the case, regardless of the disclaimer they put on their paperwork. So I'm burned about the whole thing too, and I don't even hunt...
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Post by cambygsp on Nov 29, 2007 6:43:22 GMT -5
What about atterbury, are there any hunts left there?
If security is a concern, it would seem atterbury would follow suit!
The president of the IDHA is saying on his site that slob hunting got the hunt stopped...........someone shot after legal hours and shot at a deer on the golf course
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Post by mullis56 on Nov 29, 2007 7:21:23 GMT -5
What about atterbury, are there any hunts left there? If security is a concern, it would seem atterbury would follow suit! The president of the IDHA is saying on his site that slob hunting got the hunt stopped...........someone shot after legal hours and shot at a deer on the golf course Atterbury is done. Wouldn't surprise me if some iddiot ruined it for all.
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Post by greghopper on Nov 29, 2007 7:29:25 GMT -5
What about atterbury, are there any hunts left there? If security is a concern, it would seem atterbury would follow suit! The president of the IDHA is saying on his site that slob hunting got the hunt stopped...........someone shot after legal hours and shot at a deer on the golf course NOT TRUE..... you need to go re-read what was posted!!!! Lets not miss quote people ......
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Post by oneshot on Nov 29, 2007 9:09:41 GMT -5
Crane isn't worth the effort anymore, imo. Agree
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sr71
Full Member
Posts: 52
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Post by sr71 on Nov 29, 2007 9:21:12 GMT -5
JJ, (Mr. Thomas??) I already know all those folks fairly well, but thank you. You can deny there was not an incident all you want, but something DID happen. You keep bringing up poor o'l Bobby like some of us are singling him out. Why do you keep defending Bobby? His name was never mentioned until you brought it up. Bobby uses and needs an ATV and that is fine. I never said that HE didn't need it. By the way, how is his bumper dumper working out? ;D (Trying to lighten the mood here) Yes I’ve read the Sykes act. I know what it says. For others who would like to read some of it. www.fws.gov/habitatconservation/2004SikesAct%20NMFWA.pdf What’s nice about the “Security” statement is this provides the Command with a “catch all” clause. They don’t have to go into detail as to why this policy or that policy is in effect. When/Where did I say anything about the CO keeping all the money?? I keep going back through my post and do not see where I wrote that. Mr. Horn Harvester was the one that brought up the perception of that nonsense. The bottom line is our hunting privileges are suspended. Hopefully they will be reinstated sometime in the near future. Maybe the Command in the future along with NR and the rest of us can come up with a plan that will benefit all and still keep the OPSEC function of the base. I’m done with this thread. I wish all the best in there hunting and stay safe.
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Post by dhayse32 on Nov 29, 2007 10:01:09 GMT -5
Well I am not sure what is going on, as a contractor here on the base I have just as many rights as any state hunter out there. The rumor mill around here is crazy, I have heard the same things as SR71 so it is not like he is just making this stuff up. And more than likely all these rumors are going to push the possibility of future hunting here farther and farther away. IMO the whole state hunts are a joke anyways. When I come in to work, if I would happen to have a .22 shell in my car I would be reemed at the gate if not worse...I have worked here for only 3 years but I have a Secret security clearance as well as a back ground check, heck I could lose my job over a DUI in a heartbeat, yet during these state hunts any Tom, Dick, and Harry can get drawn out of a hat and bring a loaded weapon on to the base. They preach security here ALL the time but the state hunts go against everything they preach on a daily basis. If the deer population is so out of control that they need to bring in outside hunters to take some deer out, why not allow Government employees and Govt. contractors who have had a background check work to control the population, even if it is a bow only situation. Just my $.02.
As for the ATV's go....there are people here who need them for handicap reasons, which is understandable. The problem is that there are going to be those handful or so of people who really don't need a ATV but are just lazy and abuse the privilege. I do not know Bob, not sure I could pick him out of a crowd, but none of this applies to you. You have a legit reason to use an ATV and I don't have an issue with that. But just like everything else, 1 XXXXX can ruin it for everyone.
Like someone said above, it if was indeed for security then that is 100% acceptable...but it just seems as if there is something else, some other issue that took place for all of this to come to a screeching halt so suddenly.
The $40 is a bad deal for those that sent the money in, but that is part of the risk. It is right there in black and white when you turn the papers in so that is just a risk that you take on a hunt like this.
Lastly, we need to put one thing above all when we look at these hunts, CRANE IS A GOVERNMENT/MILITARY BASE! This is not some state park or animal sanctuary. There are things that go on in here that you will not find anywhere else. Hunting here was a major privilege. Which the national sercurity like it is today, I am shocked that hunting here as went as far as it has.
V/R DH
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Post by drs on Nov 29, 2007 10:38:50 GMT -5
Sounds like Crane is becomming another "Area 51"......
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Post by dhayse32 on Nov 29, 2007 12:06:37 GMT -5
Well if there wasn't important/confidential stuff going on in here then a fence and high security would not be needed
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Post by Hoosier Hunter on Nov 29, 2007 12:15:07 GMT -5
Sounds like Crane is becomming another "Area 51"...... I heard they're raising top secret BOONERS!
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Post by hornharvester on Nov 29, 2007 12:21:12 GMT -5
Ive only hunted Crane two times and that was 2004 and 2005. I liked hunting there but I didn't like the 4 hour one way drive and having to be there at 1:30AM, then sitting in the parking lot until 6AM and paying 40.00 to hunt. I decided for me it wasn't worth the money and time for a one day hunt. If I lived down south then I might change my mind.
I just hope all this works out and all get to hunt there that want to. h.h.
And SR71, I didn't say the CO either.
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Post by DEERTRACKS on Nov 29, 2007 13:44:19 GMT -5
When I went I saw people with ATV'S on their trailers. I didn't know you could have them on that property because the paper they sent said no driving off the roads or something like that. If this was the rule why even let them in the gate? This is the exact reason I HATE!!!!!! ATV's this kind of BS is what ruins hunting for a whole lot of hard working folks who find a way to get their tails into a good spot and then 15 min before shooting time here comes lazy butt on his 4 wheeler making noise and screwing evrything up! It would suit me just fine if they made those d@mb things illegal. Easy now. I am "hard working" & not a "lazy butt".
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