|
Post by ribbuster on Mar 30, 2009 11:04:15 GMT -5
So this is a recent press release .It is so sad and lies at the heart of greed in hunting .With open over the counter tags and unregulated outfitters popping up here and all over the country .This begs to question who's property will be next or will it be our state ground . March 29, 2009 Elderly riled by hunting scheme By Quan Truong qtruong@enquirer.com There were track marks of four-wheel drives. Piles of dead deer. And sometimes late at night, Evelyn Butts would look out the window at her 100-acre property and see lights flickering in the woods. None of that made sense - until authorities began investigating a Sharonville man for a wildlife scheme in Adams County that netted more than $80,000 from dozens of hunters and took advantage of elderly property owners. "I'm angry, disgusted and annoyed," Butts said. "I'm a 73-year-old lady, and you better bet I'm not gonna sit on this. Oh my goodness - I feel violated." Butts, like many others in rural Adams County, owns property that stretches into the woods and well beyond the line of sight from her home. She is one of at least half a dozen property owners who recently discovered that a stranger had been leading hunters onto their property in search of deer and turkey. That stranger, investigators say, is Joseph Todd Payne, who faces several wildlife charges that are third- and fourth-degree misdemeanors. More charges are pending. He is scheduled to appear in Adams County Court in April. Payne allegedly charged hunters $1,200 to $1,500 for five-day deer and turkey hunts on land he didn't own. The 30-year-old helped start a company called Lethal Impact Outfitters, which provides deer and turkey hunting guide services. The company's Web site touts "trophy class whitetails" and more than 2,000 acres of "private low-pressure" hunting in Jackson and Adams counties. Payne's business, which was in operation for several years, wasn't short on customers. "It's a growing industry," said Joel Buddelmeyer, investigator with the Ohio Division of Wildlife. "There's a lot of money to be made, especially with out-of-state hunters from Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina. We have bigger and better deer here." Payne's alleged scheme didn't land on the radar until last January, when a property caretaker noticed several people hunting. The hunters said they paid Payne to hunt there and showed written permission slips issued by Lethal Impact Outfitters. An undercover investigation revealed several parcels of land being used. A search warrant was issued earlier this month on Payne's Sharonville home, where authorities confiscated computers, journals, records and receipts. Most of the property owners, such as Helen Haverland, 83, do not live on the land. Haverland said her land is used for farming and is usually unregulated. She said she allowed hunting on her property years ago but has since posted signs that forbid it. Butts also has "no trespassing" signs and said part of her land is fenced, but there's no way for her to regulate so many acres. "It makes me angry to think that people profit from bringing other people into my property," Butts said. "It makes me so angry. They don't pay my taxes. They have no right to be here, and to think they've made a profit off of it." Hundreds of acres of open land in Adams County go without watch, she said. No license is required to be a hunting guide, and the only way for wildlife officers to know someone has trespassed is through public complaint, Buddelmeyer said. "We're getting more and more deer guides in Ohio, and the Division of Wildlife doesn't have any regulations on them," he said. Butts isn't sure what she'll do to protect her land. "You can't put up a fence around 100 acres of land, and they won't stay out because of a trespassing sign," she said. "I never know who's back there." Here are links to the original article and the "outfitters" website: news.cincinnati.com/article/2...0320/1055/NEWSwww.lethalimpactoutfitters.com/This is an outrage and so sad to the very heart of the matter on all sides!! This lead me to do a quick search here and found that there are outfitters here in our state that sells semi guided and guided hunts on our privet and state ground. I saw one TV yesterday on Keith Warrens show he posted his web site so I looked at it. He is not alone there are others as well .So I will not defame his operation or slander him or his operation I am sure he is up and up .This is just to show that the outfitters are out here in our state,{unless they hunt penned animals then they are required to be licensed to own and keep wild game}, and as far as I know they are not regulated or licensed by the DNR. As far as I know outfitting and outfitters are not required to fallow any laws other than the game laws on the books.This leads to the over the counter tag with NR hunters discussion that have no reason to question the outfitters or land they are hunting. So is it time to regulate and license our growing number of outfitters and go to a county by county draw for NR hunting licenses like alot of other states that are NR tuff and regulate their outfitters ? So shouldn't these outfitters and guides be tested ,licensed ,and have to pay the state for the right to operate and take hunters out to take game from at least state land as well as be regulated to a higher standard than regular hunters Also should NR hunters have to draw tags for the county they tend to hunt as other states do thus also limiting the number of NRS ?Also if they are going to hunt public land and get payed thousands of dollars to do so should they not have to pay the government a yearly fee for this privilege I mean there are thousands of Indiana deer hunters who only hunt public ground who pay taxes for that right !I think there may be something beginning to get a little rotten here in Indiana hunting!
|
|
|
Post by Decatur on Mar 30, 2009 11:13:54 GMT -5
I sent a copy of this to Grim Reaper who sponsor them.
|
|
|
Post by ribbuster on Mar 30, 2009 11:44:43 GMT -5
I sent a copy of this to Grim Reaper who sponsor them. Good that was a good idea!1 Don't you think that all outfitters should have to submit a list of lands that they take their customers too hunt on to the area COs so that they can keep track of this sort of thing as well as NRs since they are not up to speed on alot of our rules.That way if they are where they do not belong they could be arrested and put out of business?
|
|
|
Post by NON-TYPICAL on Mar 30, 2009 13:27:25 GMT -5
Why should a outfitter be the only one who has to do this, it's no different than the guy who crosses your fence or wonders onto property he is not allowed on and shoots game illegally. Trespassers are not going to learn until they are taught by the law!! As for out of state if they pay for a lic they have as much a right to be there as you. This is the same as for an outfitter if he has a state lic he has every right to be on public land. If they choose to bring people there to hunt thats on him, why fault them for running a business. If you book a hunt why would you go to a outfitter who hunts public land? It would be cheaper just to go on your own. If you want outfitters to have to show the rights to a property how will this work when we cant keep people off private land we live on, or own and are there all the time? The problem is people just dont respect other people and to involve the state is ridiculous, you guys complain about government regulating our herd do we really want them to monitor the land we hunt? I own a 5 acre pond with 75 acres of hardwoods and have signs posted all over by the road and around the pond and its nothing to show up and have 10 people out fishing. Ive called the co's countless times and they still come back. I allow 2 county officers to fish it and it cant stop them. So if you can tell me how to stop this I would greatly appreciate it. I just dont see how monitoring our land with co's help will work!!
|
|
|
Post by ribbuster on Mar 30, 2009 14:36:44 GMT -5
Why should a outfitter be the only one who has to do this, it's no different than the guy who crosses your fence or wonders onto property he is not allowed on and shoots game illegally. Trespassers are not going to learn until they are taught by the law!! As for out of state if they pay for a lic they have as much a right to be there as you. This is the same as for an outfitter if he has a state lic he has every right to be on public land. If they choose to bring people there to hunt thats on him, why fault them for running a business. If you book a hunt why would you go to a outfitter who hunts public land? It would be cheaper just to go on your own. If you want outfitters to have to show the rights to a property how will this work when we cant keep people off private land we live on, or own and are there all the time? The problem is people just dont respect other people and to involve the state is ridiculous, you guys complain about government regulating our herd do we really want them to monitor the land we hunt? I own a 5 acre pond with 75 acres of hardwoods and have signs posted all over by the road and around the pond and its nothing to show up and have 10 people out fishing. Ive called the co's countless times and they still come back. I allow 2 county officers to fish it and it cant stop them. So if you can tell me how to stop this I would greatly appreciate it. I just dont see how monitoring our land with co's help will work!! Well really I feel your plight I do and my points were not for the landowners or average resident public land hunters to check in with the DNR. You have to have the trespassers arrested and after a few get arrested they will slowly quit coming I know it works up here..It was directed at those who really have nothing but a couple hundred dollars and no real clue as to the rules involved they just show up pay a thousand or two dollars to some guy/guys who takes these guys out pays nothing but sales tax and rapes every body and every thing in or state from the Gov,to the average hunter, to the game we all enjoy as a resident here and takes these fools who could do it themselves out to hunt public ground what is that really ..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2009 15:48:25 GMT -5
So ribbuster, you don't like outfitters or NR hunters who might or might not choose to use one, so want want to penalize both to take some kind of test or pay additional fees.
My experience has been that hunters that travel and spend serious amounts of cash to hunt other states than the one they live in, are better hunters than the average joe out there. Same with those in the outfitting business, must are experienced hunters and better than the average.
And there are thousands across the country,a nd most do it right. Those that don't normally don't stay in business very long.
You have beat your chest several times recently about your hunting expertise in and out of Indiana, maybe you will pony up and take your test and pay more to highlight the value of doing so. the real problem is that your afraid to share your resources with others, same reason you want to change management practices to make things better for yourself. You don't give a flip about other guys nor do you see the value in doing what is nessacary to increase hunter numbers overall to insure the sport keeps growing.
|
|
|
Post by ribbuster on Mar 30, 2009 16:06:07 GMT -5
So ribbuster, you don't like outfitters or NR hunters who might or might not choose to use one, so want want to penalize both to take some kind of test or pay additional fees. My experience has been that hunters that travel and spend serious amounts of cash to hunt other states than the one they live in, are better hunters than the average Joe out there. Same with those in the outfitting business, must are experienced hunters and better than the average. And there are thousands across the country,a nd most do it right. Those that don't normally don't stay in business very long. You have beat your chest several times recently about your hunting expertise in and out of Indiana, maybe you will pony up and take your test and pay more to highlight the value of doing so. the real problem is that your afraid to share your resources with others, same reason you want to change management practices to make things better for yourself. You don't give a flip about other guys nor do you see the value in doing what is necessary to increase hunter numbers overall to insure the sport keeps growing. I don't care for unfair practices nor things that drag hunting or hunters down .When money gets involved it destroys everything hunting is supposed to be about -->And that is self satisfaction to the hunter that is hunting ,not the satisfaction of you or me . I really don't care what you think of me personally . You are as guilty as anyone else of wanting it all your way that is clear with all your posts as you tell me and others how wrong we always are and our motives are always suspect with you. I want to see hunting around for all including me without some money grubbing outfits or clubs ruining it I don't really mind NRs but they for the most part in our state have to meet any criteria but to lay down a few hundred bucks here and there is no limit to how many show up .Lets face the cats We do not like each others thought at all its obvious to a blind man! . Son didn't your daddy teach you to take care of your own first ??/ 1-- You bet I am greedy I want Indiana hunters to come first not some guy who just leased up 5 thousand acres that displaced dozens of my fellow Indiana hunters .All of us not just me or you! 2 I have shared camps with your so called high skill level hunters they for the most part rely on their money to get their game and little else.Anyone can pull a trigger .The average Joe that dose it himself and kills anything is twice the hunter! 3 You bet I do not want you or anyone else {NR} killing my "OUR" deer ahead of our own hunters first ,and that is what chaps your butt deep down!! 4 Money will eventually run all but the rich hunters out of a sport that you claim to want everyone part of it dirties every aspect of the purity of hunting. 5 I will share our not "my" resources with every hunter in Indiana that pays for a tag./ 6 We have to look out for our own hunters first all of them and any management that makes more or bigger deer for everyone not just the few is good management ..Please do not pretend you wouldn't flatten a giant buck given the chance every hunter out there would!! When you crawl into my mind an heart and shoes you get to tell me what I think or want .You know nothing about me at all .
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Mar 30, 2009 18:58:22 GMT -5
Not too many hunters that have hunted very long with just a little bit of disposable income hasn't opted to hunt out of state and/or with a guide/outfitter.
I know I certainly have had a lot of money tied up in NR licenses/tags from:
Pennsylvania Colorado North Dakota Wyoming Michigan Kentucky Illinois Missouri Idaho Ontario Alberta
I guess being a Non Resident numerous times has instilled a feeling in me that we are all hunters and I don't personally care if that hunter is form in state or comes from halfway around the world. He is still my hunting brother. I've shared hunting camps with hunters from other states and provinces and enjoyed every minute of it. In fact, I really get interested in hearing stories of their hunts in their home states and how they hunt.
.....and yes I've hunted and paid "trespassing fees", hunted on leased ground and/or with outfitters a few times in:
Wyoming Illinois Ontario Alberta Idaho
I personally don't think any of that has contributed to the downfall of hunting.
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Mar 30, 2009 19:02:35 GMT -5
BTW -
Guys,
Let's stick to the subject and leave the personal stuff out. OK?
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Mar 30, 2009 19:16:46 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Sasquatch on Mar 30, 2009 19:18:54 GMT -5
I can feel for the customers here. Who would dream that the outfitter had no legal right to set foot on the property. This could really stain an innocent guy's rep.
Those who hear a turkey gobbling over the hill on old Mrs. Johnson's place and go get it because they know Mrs. Johnson never leaves the house are just as guilty as the butthole "outfitter" in this sad tale. I knew guys who routinely did this, but because of the vague borders and loose vigilance of some landowners, never pay any price. They were sure quick to brag about that big deer or turkey though.
|
|
|
Post by freedomhunter on Mar 30, 2009 20:35:46 GMT -5
Heard a story close to this one in Pike County, Illinois. The biggest guided operation there putting guys right on top of questionable property lines without them knowing it. Guess it happens everywhere, really. What rings true in these situations most of the time is the befuddled property owner never let a single responsible hunter have permission, thus the easy tresspass by the outfitter.
|
|
|
Post by Woody Williams on Mar 30, 2009 20:45:05 GMT -5
........ What rings true in these situations most of the time is the befuddled property owner never let a single responsible hunter have permission, thus the easy tresspass by the outfitter. Very true...I hunt on 40 acres that is owned by a NR. The man is actually working in Portugal. As best I can, I keep people off of the property for him. NT landwners would be a lot better off to allow responsible hunters on their property so they can keep an eye on the place for them.
|
|
|
Post by Old Ironsights on Mar 30, 2009 20:48:15 GMT -5
Heard a story close to this one in Pike County, Illinois. The biggest guided operation there putting guys right on top of questionable property lines without them knowing it. Guess it happens everywhere, really. What rings true in these situations most of the time is the befuddled property owner never let a single responsible hunter have permission, thus the easy tresspass by the outfitter. Yep. Couple that with Outfitters Leasing up exclusive access and Honest Joe Sixpack, who can't afford a Lease or Outfitter, and isn't about to tresspass, gets priced out of anything but the Orange Army Combat Zone... Ah well. Such is the Sport of Kings...
|
|
|
Post by duff on Mar 30, 2009 22:00:29 GMT -5
What's wrong with a guy leasing his ground to someone or an outfitter? What's wrong with an outfitter selling hunting opportunities to willing clients? No different then you getting paid for your job. Provide a service to someone they find valuable and it is paid for it's value. No different then the work I provide to my company another company will think they are overpaying (not likely!!!) and others pay more to get better service. Free market at it's finest. We could lobby Obama to put together some sort of "spread the wealth" program and make sure each person only has 20 acres to hunt on because we don't want one person or one group of people to hog the land...sounds like a good gov't program if I ever heard of one!
|
|
|
Post by Old Ironsights on Mar 30, 2009 22:23:03 GMT -5
Duff, the problem is in the absurdity of this dichotomy:
Deer belong to "the State" and are a "public resource", yet a landowner can lease his property - and all of those "State Assets" to the highest bidder.
In five years of living here, I have all but given up on hunting anything but UDZ and State Draws because I don't have family connections, money or other access to private ground... to hunt a "State Asset"...
The simple fact is, the more Leasing there is, the less Hunting there will be. It's a Zero Sum Game.
|
|
|
Post by ribbuster on Mar 30, 2009 22:35:49 GMT -5
Duff, the problem is in the absurdity of this dichotomy: Deer belong to "the State" and are a "public resource", yet a landowner can lease his property - and all of those "State Assets" to the highest bidder. In five years of living here, I have all but given up on hunting anything but UDZ and State Draws because I don't have family connections, money or other access to private ground... to hunt a "State Asset"... The simple fact is, the more Leasing there is, the less Hunting there will be. It's a Zero Sum Game. Ding ding ding ----We have a winner with no regulation no product or resource can be sustained or made available to all at the highest quality level possible .!When dealing with state funded resources and properties that property and resource belongs first and for most to the residents of that state .As such regulation to assure that those who subsidies and pay the wages of those that are paid to protect our resources should also have to protect the residents rights first. Know that hunting land while leased by outfitters will never support our citizens hunting numbers and hobby .Thus it just becomes a rich mans game in the end!
|
|
|
Post by Decatur on Mar 31, 2009 0:35:18 GMT -5
Duff, the problem is in the absurdity of this dichotomy: Deer belong to "the State" and are a "public resource", yet a landowner can lease his property - and all of those "State Assets" to the highest bidder. In five years of living here, I have all but given up on hunting anything but UDZ and State Draws because I don't have family connections, money or other access to private ground... to hunt a "State Asset"... The simple fact is, the more Leasing there is, the less Hunting there will be. It's a Zero Sum Game. Ding ding ding ----We have a winner with no regulation no product or resource can be sustained or made available to all at the highest quality level possible .!When dealing with state funded resources and properties that property and resource belongs first and for most to the residents of that state .As such regulation to assure that those who subsidies and pay the wages of those that are paid to protect our resources should also have to protect the residents rights first. Know that hunting land while leased by outfitters will never support our citizens hunting numbers and hobby .Thus it just becomes a rich mans game in the end! !
|
|
|
Post by duff on Mar 31, 2009 6:31:09 GMT -5
When leasing the land or buying the land for that matter you are not buying a deer or a turkey or any of the game located on it for that matter. You are buying the right to hunt on that property. There is a difference. As long as the property is not fenced in those deer that belong to the state are free to move to the next property.
There are lots of people who can't afford things. There are lots of people who are not entitled to family wealth such as land or money. It's an unfair world, but with the right leader CHANGE can happen! Sorry I don't see the difference you guys are attempting to point out.
I am not real fond of leasing but fail to see how restricting it will make any difference. Should we also stop the groups that buy the land to hunt on. I mean we all can't afford to buy land for hunting purposes, but some can. Where would you draw the line? I surely can't see the difference.
If you want to restrict the NR from leasing up land I read an interesting way to slow it down. Put a quota on NR tags and a lotto draw. This would make them think twice about leasing land they might not be able to hunt. I am not sure it is a huge issue that needs pushed but it is the best way IDNR could lower the value of land to NR.
|
|
|
Post by ribbuster on Mar 31, 2009 7:17:31 GMT -5
When leasing the land or buying the land for that matter you are not buying a deer or a turkey or any of the game located on it for that matter. You are buying the right to hunt on that property. There is a difference. As long as the property is not fenced in those deer that belong to the state are free to move to the next property. There are lots of people who can't afford things. There are lots of people who are not entitled to family wealth such as land or money. It's an unfair world, but with the right leader CHANGE can happen! Sorry I don't see the difference you guys are attempting to point out. I am not real fond of leasing but fail to see how restricting it will make any difference. Should we also stop the groups that buy the land to hunt on. I mean we all can't afford to buy land for hunting purposes, but some can. Where would you draw the line? I surely can't see the difference. If you want to restrict the NR from leasing up land I read an interesting way to slow it down. Put a quota on NR tags and a lotto draw. This would make them think twice about leasing land they might not be able to hunt. I am not sure it is a huge issue that needs pushed but it is the best way IDNR could lower the value of land to NR. Indiana has an interesting take on the deer of our state .Unlike alot of other states that claim the ownership of the animals in their state .That is and it is a quota from the DNR laws a nd rules . "The deer belong to the people of the state of Indiana " This lends credence to the thoughts from my previous posts that the hunters of the state of Indiana have the RIGHT to those animals and thusly the state hunting land they live on First and our hunting rights as citizen hunters of the state of Indiana. We as hunters here in this state live in a time that is make or break for hunting future and its time to get a handle on outfitting and leasing here to keep those deer "OURS " and access to hunting land for the future generations affordable or better yet free !
|
|