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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 15, 2008 11:28:13 GMT -5
Ooopppss!!
I missed this question.
IF the gun hunter is after any deer there is not much of a challenge at all. IF he/she is after a Mr. Big Buck then it can become quite a challenge - just like bowhunting.
Pav,
With the overabundance of deer that we have today we make our own challenges by what deer we will take, not necessarily what hunting tool we hunt them with.
How many of us pass up and pass up and pass up small bucks waiting for Mr. Big?
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Post by pav on Aug 16, 2008 6:17:00 GMT -5
Ooopppss!!I missed this question. IF the gun hunter is after any deer there is not much of a challenge at all. IF he/she is after a Mr. Big Buck then it can become quite a challenge - just like bowhunting. Pav, With the overabundance of deer that we have today we make our own challenges by what deer we will take, not necessarily what hunting tool we hunt them with. How many of us pass up and pass up and pass up small bucks waiting for Mr. Big? Woody, Again, you paint a very broad picture (sadly, it seems for the sake of defending crossbows). While I'm not seeing much response, I have a difficult time believing you haven't offended a large portion of your site's user group. Not everybody has thirty years of deer hunting experience and a great place to hunt. Deer hunter success rates are still well below 50%....and that number gets much smaller if you factor in the number of people that harvested multiple deer. I honestly don't think it would be a stetch to say 100% of our deer harvest comes from 25%-30% of our deer hunter base. Depending on who's deer hunter estimates you are looking at, that leaves somewhere between 100,000 to 200,000 Indiana deer hunters with tag soup every year. Go back and look at your own deer contest from last year. How many people signed up, but didn't enter a single deer? It happens. You ask me how much challenge it is to take "any deer" with my compound bow? My honest answer to that question is....not alot. I've been deer hunting about thirty years. It is a passion that I pursue all year long in one form or another. I have an excellent place to hunt with a very high deer population and extremely limited bowhunting pressure. I'm selective when it comes to shooting a buck...and take does for management purposes. I killed five deer with my bow last season.....and could have killed several more. I have bowhunted exclusively with a bow since 1992 (with the exception of a couple ML days over that 16 year period in Muscatatuk). Point is, you can't use the people with the most experience and best places to hunt as measuring sticks. If you go with the 25% actual hunter success number, my five deer in 2007 means 19 other deer hunters didn't get a single deer last season. Tell those folks there isn't much challenge taking "any deer" (regardless of the weapon). Before you into "defense" mode.....please read that post a couple more times. I still rememer the days when I gauged my season success based on how many deer I got into bow range ....ate tag soup more often than not....and had a blast doing it. Give that some thought.
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Post by dbd870 on Aug 16, 2008 6:40:35 GMT -5
Nah, we're not offended, in fact I think you'd find the majority of us who have been on here a while agree with Woody. It's just we've been down this road before.
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 16, 2008 8:12:01 GMT -5
Pav,
I'm not "defending crossbows" I am pointing out the very real similarities between the crossbow and the compound bow when it comes to hunting.
You seem to say that bowhunting with a compound is a great challenge and bowhunting with a crossbow isn't.
Please explain why one is a challenge and the other isn't?
.
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Post by racktracker on Aug 16, 2008 9:44:59 GMT -5
This interesting thread is a catch all for all that ails us and I am surprised that it has remained a mostly civil discussion considering the many faceted subjects. I'm sure that buckup got what he wanted. IMHO there is no doubt to me that we are our own worst enemies when we only think of ourselves and the way we hunt as being the right and only way to hunt. We sometimes fail to see the big picture in hunting and only want what is best for us. IOW - we are somewhat selfish. I do have a comment on the bowhunting challenge. No doubt it is tougher to take a deer with a bow than a gun as it is a short range weapon. But, if bowhunters are doing it because it is a challenge why do we always buy the latest doo-dads to make that challenge easier? Is not every new product that is hawked promise us that it will make it easier to take that "big buck"? And we buy it. Why does 9 plus out of 10 bowhunters use a compound bow? Does that not take part of the challenge out of bowhunting? I could go on and on, but I digress. This is part of the "being the right and only way to hunt" as some people think my way is challenging and your's isn't. Carry on.
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Post by Old Ironsights on Aug 16, 2008 10:18:21 GMT -5
I think it's now official... ... But, if bowhunters are doing it because it is a challenge why do we always buy the latest doo-dads to make that challenge easier? Is not every new product that is hawked promise us that it will make it easier to take that "big buck"? And we buy it. Why does 9 plus out of 10 bowhunters use a compound bow? Does that not take part of the challenge out of bowhunting? I could go on and on, but I digress... I've always wondered that too. Not that supporting the sporting goods industry is a bad thing, but personally I'd rather spent my time and money on making sure I'm insanely accurate... even with my old Martin. But, I suppose here is the comparison between Crossbow & Compound Bow that works: The Compound Bow is more "difficult" than a Crossbow in the same way an unsupported singleshot ML Pistol (no sabot) is more difficult than a singleshot ML (no sabot) long arm. Everything is (roughly) equivlent except the ease of support and aiming. (If someone wants to get pedantic about draw and release vs mechanical hold, I will stipulate having the pistol in a holster before draw & fire... ) But, at those ranges, that "difference" in difficulty is, IMO not really that big of a deal... which is why I still like using my ML pistol more than my ML rifle. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2008 10:41:40 GMT -5
Good thing "being difficult" is not a requirement in hunting,if it was, just imagine how many hunters we would still have in the ranks? ? As for EASY-er, all archer manufactors have been trying to find easier to use products for ages now.......be it more let-off, no tune broadheads, easy or no tune bows, and xillions of other products that you install and shoot verses spending hours on preperation like we did in the old days. No, hunting does not need to be hard.....and that's a good thing! Imagine the NASP program using 50 lb. recurve bows in their program.....wonder what the interest level would be from the youngsters?
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Post by Decatur on Aug 16, 2008 11:42:27 GMT -5
This thread has NOTHING to do with the original topic. Why it doesn't get shut down, I'll never know.
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Post by huxbux on Aug 16, 2008 11:47:36 GMT -5
Same old arguments. If you want to make the sport more challenging, then do so. If you wish to make it as easy as possible, do so. Why be so concerned about what others do?
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Post by Woody Williams on Aug 16, 2008 11:54:23 GMT -5
This thread has NOTHING to do with the original topic. Why it doesn't get shut down, I'll never know. The original topic...What do you believe is the biggest threat to hunting today? Anti's Non-Hunters Ourselves Loss of Habitat Other I 'think' this has to do with "ourselves" maybe??
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Post by Decatur on Aug 16, 2008 13:37:30 GMT -5
Exactly!
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Post by jackryan on Aug 16, 2008 19:59:11 GMT -5
... Are you implying these people are irresponsible hunters for not sighting in their slug guns more than a few days before season? Irresponsible? Not sure I would go that far - at least considering the cost of Slugs - but I do see the "don't touch the gun until just before season" attitude as a significant factor in missed and wounded deer... I don't see any reason to go out and shoot up $50 worth of slugs every year in a gun you don't use for any thing but deer hunting unless you let it rattle around in the back of a truck from one season to the next. A person who shoots enough to stay competent is still going to be as competent with one rifle as he is with another pretty much. The important thing is to shoot and practice shooting. You don't have to shoot 20 slugs every day just to stay competent with a slug gun. It's the whole point of using a gun. The biggest problem with people wounding and missing is all the time they spend reading magazines, analysing charts, and watching TV absorbing bull chips instead of shooting ANY THING. They think they'll just BUY something that will make up for their incompetence. Quick trip to Walmart to pick up that can of "Rifleman" cologne and suddenly they can shoot running deer in heavy brush at 100 yards and know where every bullet DIDN'T GO because the wounded deer is high flagging it in to the next county. Shoot all year, shoot the gun you want to hunt with BEFORE YOU go hunting and you won't find your self shooting it at noon of opening day wondering if the gun was dropped or you just can't hit the side of a barn this year.
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Post by jackryan on Aug 16, 2008 20:03:44 GMT -5
Well, I certainly hope you don't! We're more than six weeks from the early archery opener, and bowhunters are already out practicing. That is great! Hopefully, they will be practicing using broadheads in the next few weeks and be ready on October 1st. Not sure what your point is? I sit in a treestand for six weeks prior to the firearm opener. Based on shooting noise in the area, it is pretty obvious when the calendar is just a few days from the firearm opener. Are you implying these people are irresponsible hunters for not sighting in their slug guns more than a few days before season? The "point" is it is not all that big challenge that you say it is. Not all bowhunters are shooting their bows right now. Some wont pick them up until late September, if then. Some will shot a half dozen shots the night before and think that is enough. Do you think that "bowhunters" are "irresponsible of they don't sight in their bows until a a few days before season?" Some won't even do that. They'll just buy a cross bow the week before they want to hunt, cock it the night before and put a bolt on the string in the truck and carry it all day ready to fire with the stock to their shoulder and a yank of the trigger. Then they go in to politicion mode and spend the rest of the year rationalizing how it's just as much archery as a bow and arrow and all about how the equipment they couldn't use is just as easy to master as their crossbow.
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Post by jkd on Aug 17, 2008 4:45:34 GMT -5
Perhaps the biggest threat to hunting are internet-based message forums... I see things posted on boards all over the net with statements guys would never make to one another face to face...
I'm amazed that there are actually people out there who have enough time on their hands to establish a set of rules or some magic calendar as to when I should be sighting in my bow/shotgun/muzzleloader, and then have further time to comment on same on some forum, and spew derision towards others in the process...
I've been out squirrel hunting with my son the past couple of days, enjoying this great weather and time in the woods with him... OMG, I now know I should have been worrying about scheduling a target session with my PCR before time runs out...!!!! Better make it a double session... 20 shots with the compound, followed by a full box of .44 mags... I mean, hey, gun season is ONLY 3.5 months away, and I wouldn't want someone on some forum thinking I was a slob hunter!!!!
And to think I was going to take him to the air show next weekend... well, better cancel that and check the muzzleloaders on the range....
Oh, that's right... I guess I'll just not hunt gun season this year since it's not a challenge... maybe I should take my son's Optima .50 away from him... more "challenge" will surely build his confidence and make hunting more enjoyable for him as a result...
No, wait... maybe I'll just ignore all this wonderful expert opinion from this thread, and enjoy hunting like I have for the past 40+ years... taking a few practice bowshots every evening before dinner when the season is two weeks out, making the first one count... and fine tuning the firearms sights the weekend before gun or muzzy so that I know precisely how the weapon is performing and ballistics data is fresh in my mind... spending time with my 14 y.o. getting fired up for the youth deer weekend and the upcoming season...
And rest assured, when I'm sitting in the woods watching for squirrels in the coming days, I won't be giving a tinker's damn what any of you think about how I get ready for my hunting season or what I'm shooting...
Hunter7x and I will just be enjoying ourselves in our respective hunting grounds...
You all have a great deer season... whenever that is...
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Post by Decatur on Aug 17, 2008 6:55:02 GMT -5
Amen JKD!
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Post by hornharvester on Aug 17, 2008 8:42:32 GMT -5
Perhaps the biggest threat to hunting are internet-based message forums... I see things posted on boards all over the net with statements guys would never make to one another face to face... I'm amazed that there are actually people out there who have enough time on their hands to establish a set of rules or some magic calendar as to when I should be sighting in my bow/shotgun/muzzleloader, and then have further time to comment on same on some forum, and spew derision towards others in the process... I've been out squirrel hunting with my son the past couple of days, enjoying this great weather and time in the woods with him... OMG, I now know I should have been worrying about scheduling a target session with my PCR before time runs out...!!!! Better make it a double session... 20 shots with the compound, followed by a full box of .44 mags... I mean, hey, gun season is ONLY 3.5 months away, and I wouldn't want someone on some forum thinking I was a slob hunter!!!! And to think I was going to take him to the air show next weekend... well, better cancel that and check the muzzleloaders on the range.... Oh, that's right... I guess I'll just not hunt gun season this year since it's not a challenge... maybe I should take my son's Optima .50 away from him... more "challenge" will surely build his confidence and make hunting more enjoyable for him as a result... No, wait... maybe I'll just ignore all this wonderful expert opinion from this thread, and enjoy hunting like I have for the past 40+ years... taking a few practice bowshots every evening before dinner when the season is two weeks out, making the first one count... and fine tuning the firearms sights the weekend before gun or muzzy so that I know precisely how the weapon is performing and ballistics data is fresh in my mind... spending time with my 14 y.o. getting fired up for the youth deer weekend and the upcoming season... And rest assured, when I'm sitting in the woods watching for squirrels in the coming days, I won't be giving a tinker's damn what any of you think about how I get ready for my hunting season or what I'm shooting... Hunter7x and I will just be enjoying ourselves in our respective hunting grounds... You all have a great deer season... whenever that is... JKD, Very well said! I wish I could find a copy of that "Ethics of Hunting" book some seem to quote all the time. People, hunt the way you want but don't try to force your style of hunting on other hunters! h.h.
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Post by huxbux on Aug 17, 2008 9:02:53 GMT -5
Perhaps the biggest threat to hunting are internet-based message forums... I see things posted on boards all over the net with statements guys would never make to one another face to face... I'm amazed that there are actually people out there who have enough time on their hands to establish a set of rules or some magic calendar as to when I should be sighting in my bow/shotgun/muzzleloader, and then have further time to comment on same on some forum, and spew derision towards others in the process... I've been out squirrel hunting with my son the past couple of days, enjoying this great weather and time in the woods with him... OMG, I now know I should have been worrying about scheduling a target session with my PCR before time runs out...!!!! Better make it a double session... 20 shots with the compound, followed by a full box of .44 mags... I mean, hey, gun season is ONLY 3.5 months away, and I wouldn't want someone on some forum thinking I was a slob hunter!!!! And to think I was going to take him to the air show next weekend... well, better cancel that and check the muzzleloaders on the range.... Oh, that's right... I guess I'll just not hunt gun season this year since it's not a challenge... maybe I should take my son's Optima .50 away from him... more "challenge" will surely build his confidence and make hunting more enjoyable for him as a result... No, wait... maybe I'll just ignore all this wonderful expert opinion from this thread, and enjoy hunting like I have for the past 40+ years... taking a few practice bowshots every evening before dinner when the season is two weeks out, making the first one count... and fine tuning the firearms sights the weekend before gun or muzzy so that I know precisely how the weapon is performing and ballistics data is fresh in my mind... spending time with my 14 y.o. getting fired up for the youth deer weekend and the upcoming season... And rest assured, when I'm sitting in the woods watching for squirrels in the coming days, I won't be giving a tinker's damn what any of you think about how I get ready for my hunting season or what I'm shooting... Hunter7x and I will just be enjoying ourselves in our respective hunting grounds... You all have a great deer season... whenever that is... Well said JKD. I've been wondering if I was the only one on here that had priorities other than preparing for hunting.
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Post by pav on Aug 18, 2008 5:29:16 GMT -5
Pav, I'm not "defending crossbows" I am pointing out the very real similarities between the crossbow and the compound bow when it comes to hunting. You seem to say that bowhunting with a compound is a great challenge and bowhunting with a crossbow isn't. Please explain why one is a challenge and the other isn't? . Woody, Seems you read the first paragraph of my post and skipped the rest. As for your assumptions, I recall saying the crossbow is a weapon of advantage versus a compound bow....but I never said hunting with a crossbow takes "challenge" out of the equation. I can't think of any weapon that automatically kills a deer on sight? There is challenge to any method of deer hunting....or most of us wouldn't bother. I'm primarily a compound shooter, but I won't hesitate to admit there is more challenge bowhunting with a stick and string than there is bowhunting with a compound bow. By the same token, I firmly believe there is more challenge bowhunting with a compund bow than there is hunting with a crossbow. We could move on to ML's, shotguns and PCRs....but I think my point is clear.
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Post by cambygsp on Aug 18, 2008 5:50:51 GMT -5
What advantages do you see with a crossbow?
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Post by omegahunter on Aug 18, 2008 20:32:24 GMT -5
I didn't read all of the posts so I might be repeating someone by saying that the biggest threat to my hunting right now is all of the increasing costs. They will not have to outlaw hunting, they are going to price us out of being able to hunt.
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